What realistically happens when all the routes go down with rrecs?

[Edge]

I am in agreement with some that the standards and the way the data is collected would be devastating for most if not all rural routes. Even routes with massive amazon I can see would at best maybe remain what they are evaluated at now if not even go down further. The time you may recoup on parcels will be negated by the lower time standards on everything else. A wash would be the best outcome you could hope for.

But what in reality will happen the day we get results back and you are informed, for example that your 45K is now a 42H or lower. What if your 42J is now a 37H? Etc
What if your overburdened amazon 43K comes back still at 43K or lower, even with the tons of amazon you never got credit for?

You say I take my time when loading. I scan everything at the door. I stop at every mailbox, well I stop for a few seconds and throw mail in. But how do you prove all of these things because the scanner says you skipped half the boxes on your route cause you stopped for 3'seconds but you needed 5 to get credit. How are these times possible when I get more packages than ever in history? I thought rrecs was suppose to compensate me fairly????!!!!!!

So what really happens? What does the union do when everyone quits? Hell i won't have money to pay them after the massive hit anyway. Will routes get rebuilds to make up losses? But then you will be working a lot more for less. What about 2080 time when your route is 39H but it takes you 7 hours more a week? How will these times even be legally justified.

I just feel the union needs to grow a pair and fight this now in whatever legal capacity they can to have this thrown out. At least the evaluated mail count system DOES work in relative capacity. Honestly the easy solution for the amazon burdened routes are a push more mail counts more often. They have traded one thing for something 20x worse and they know it. If not you would hear more about it. What actions can we as carriers take now to prevent this slaughtering?

 

[C$$]

If you haven't seen it yet, take a look at Havenowgone's thread. He hits the proverbial nail on the head.

Will RRECS be fair?

I read post after post complaining about the new system and how it will not be fair and not work. The reason for RRECS is because the old system was not fair to either party. How can a struggling USPS continue to pay some rural carriers 2-3 hours a day (and in some cases more) for work they are...

www.ruralmailtalk.com

Amazon exposed some glaring flaws in the current pay system. They had to do something...

Now is RRECS the best answer? No, I don't think so. It adds a lot of complexity, and carriers are going to have to work to verify the data collected from their route. But it is based off of actual engineering principles; that's something at least.

I agree some of the new time standards are concerning. And why haven't we seen the results of the engineering study (the underpinning for these new standards?) These are questions we need to be pressing the union with.

Personally I think it is too soon to clamor for pulling the plug. We need more information; our questions answered. If, for instance, rural routes across the country are going to lose, on average, 10% of their evaluation, then yeah, no-go! Unfortunately I can't make those estimates, I don't have the aggregate data for every rural route. But somebody does, and again, this is the kind of info we need to push for.

tl;dr
RRECS isn't all doom and gloom. Some routes will gain. But we need more info!

 

[C$$]

I agree. The current incarnation of the evaluation system is a catch-22.
1) Not making eval: why are you so slow, work faster!
2) Beating eval: the standards are too lax, need to tighten them up.

This *should* be fixed by RRECS. The standards will be based on engineering principles, so they shouldn't be changed all willy-nilly. I suppose it might not actually pan out that way, but that's how it should work.

I'm afraid hourly is a pipe dream. In the letter from Wilco's post here:

RRECs Update 2/10/2020

I remember saying work at a steady pace, don't cut corners, provide great service, do the job by the book, don't falsify records and don't worry about running all day long. I don't remember saying kill productivity. There should still be an incentive to work fast and beat your eval and go home...

www.ruralmailtalk.com

The PO has found
1) Carriers paid hourly tend to go over what their evaluation would be.
2) Carriers paid evaluation tend to go under evaluation (and even do additional work for free, like not adding boxes so their routes don't get cut).

 

[DB.Cooper]

I believe RRECS will hurt many carriers.... also, I don't really see the NRLCA doing much now or in the future to mitigate any of this.... my hope is that they'll stave it off as long as possible, so maybe those nearing retirement can get out before the hammer falls...

For those that remain, I think it's gonna suck.... I think @Edge came closer to hitting the nail on the head in the OP of this thread than many others who seem to be hoping for the sake of hope....

My hope is that I can be gone before it gets implemented.... not sure what others should hope for....

 

[Morty]

Had we followed the rules and NOT provided service to driveways and private roads. There would be no need for rrecs.

We shot ourselves in the head. And the majority of you and EVERYONE I talk to say...yeah, but customer service?

We didn't write the rules! If usps wants customer service, let them re write the rules. We couldn't fight for more than 8 seconds because we don't go down driveways or private roads. I have about 30 boxes in clusters because we don't go down driveways or private roads.

 

[C$$]

Had we followed the rules and NOT provided service to driveways and private roads. There would be no need for rrecs.
...

I *think* there is a bigger picture argument here. And it goes something like this:

1) We do some task without compensation.
2) It becomes established this is a task we do.
3) Now we should be compensated for this task.

I'm making some broad assumptions, and I don't have any evidence to back this up. But if this is the plan the NRLCA is operating under, phase 3 is RRECS.

Of course phase 1 and 2 we are doing extra work for no pay... But if it gets us a new duty and according compensation (like going down driveways) maybe it will be worth it in the long run. Have to see how it all pans out.

 

[Havenowgone]

If you haven't seen it yet, take a look at Havenowgone's thread. He hits the proverbial nail on the head.

Will RRECS be fair?

I read post after post complaining about the new system and how it will not be fair and not work. The reason for RRECS is because the old system was not fair to either party. How can a struggling USPS continue to pay some rural carriers 2-3 hours a day (and in some cases more) for work they are...

www.ruralmailtalk.com

Amazon exposed some glaring flaws in the current pay system. They had to do something...

Now is RRECS the best answer? No, I don't think so. It adds a lot of complexity, and carriers are going to have to work to verify the data collected from their route. But it is based off of actual engineering principles; that's something at least.

I agree some of the new time standards are concerning. And why haven't we seen the results of the engineering study (the underpinning for these new standards?) These are questions we need to be pressing the union with.

Personally I think it is too soon to clamor for pulling the plug. We need more information; our questions answered. If, for instance, rural routes across the country are going to lose, on average, 10% of their evaluation, then yeah, no-go! Unfortunately I can't make those estimates, I don't have the aggregate data for every rural route. But somebody does, and again, this is the kind of info we need to push for.

tl;dr
RRECS isn't all doom and gloom. Some routes will gain. But we need more info!

C$$ said "I agree some of the new time standards are concerning. And why haven't we seen the results of the engineering study (the underpinning for these new standards?) These are questions we need to be pressing the union with."
That question is one that I would like answered by the assoc. The time study engineers created the standards and have verified them and are now collecting information and mapping all routes in the country. Why have we not been told the results from the study routes! The results must be known! Information is being kept from us and that is the main reason for discontent with the assoc. Lack of good communication with the people that pay their salaries. This change in evaluating routes is the biggest change that I can remember for rural carriers but for some reason our leaders are withholding information from us. What are they afraid of? I have endorsed the new system in principle but until I can see how my route was actually affected, it's hard to give it a wholehearted endorsement. If my route does not go up substantially with the new system then something is drastically wrong. To our leaders...take your heads out of the sand and have the decency and honesty to provide your members with relevant information, regularly!

 

[Altoonaflyer]

Our route evaluations have been sliced like bologna, year after year, since I started. The only increases have been due to volume increases. Time standards that benefited carriers have been cherry picked and reduced, while the ones where we donate time have been left in place. I truly believe until there are not enough carriers showing up to carry the routes every day it will continue. RRECS may provide some relief for certain routes, but I wish I could believe it will result in fair evaluations...I don’t. It will be increasingly difficult to verify the data that determines our pay. Hourly is still the only way to get paid fairly given the current attitudes of Postal Management toward the workers. I feel sorry for those with many years to go. The future doesn’t look so good from where I stand.

 

[uselesshasbeen]

Our route evaluations have been sliced like bologna, year after year, since I started. The only increases have been due to volume increases. Time standards that benefited carriers have been cherry picked and reduced, while the ones where we donate time have been left in place. I truly believe until there are not enough carriers showing up to carry the routes every day it will continue. RRECS may provide some relief for certain routes, but I wish I could believe it will result in fair evaluations...I don’t. It will be increasingly difficult to verify the data that determines our pay. Hourly is still the only way to get paid fairly given the current attitudes of Postal Management toward the workers. I feel sorry for those with many years to go. The future doesn’t look so good from where I stand.

People tend to forget that one standard was changed in the favor of carriers, walking speed.

Don't know why upper management never realized that real carriers sort raw mail as fast as DPS, or think somehow that DPS isn't sorted.

Always thought it was foolish when I went from POV to LLV that they thought they should change my evaluation, nothing changed, I still delivered mail to the same people.

 

[Skierstmoritz]

I *think* there is a bigger picture argument here. And it goes something like this:

1) We do some task without compensation.
2) It becomes established this is a task we do.
3) Now we should be compensated for this task.

I'm making some broad assumptions, and I don't have any evidence to back this up. But if this is the plan the NRLCA is operating under, phase 3 is RRECS.

Of course phase 1 and 2 we are doing extra work for no pay... But if it gets us a new duty and according compensation (like going down driveways) maybe it will be worth it in the long run. Have to see how it all pans out.

"See how it all pans out. " it's been 5 years! Supposedly there was a 2250 route test of rrecs. Where are those results? How much longer? A years worth of data? That's 2021. Now it's 6 years! What next? I've delivered Amazon for free for over 5 years. Too long

 

[C$$]

"See how it all pans out. " it's been 5 years! Supposedly there was a 2250 route test of rrecs. Where are those results? How much longer? A years worth of data? That's 2021. Now it's 6 years! What next? I've delivered Amazon for free for over 5 years. Too long

Yes, I agree it has been too long.

I've heard some conflicting reports about the test route data:
1) At SAC Ronnie said they had Merkel looking at the data.
2) Someone else said, during the ratification meetings, Knapp (I think) said the data was invalid and basically thrown out.
If any of us get the ear of an executive board member, this is ABSOLUTELY what we should be asking. And don't let them dance around the issue and dodge the question.

As for the "all pans out," I was just thinking aloud: if carriers don't get paid for taking parcels to the door, and mail volumes continues to trend downward, where will we be in 10 years? Specifically to Morty's point: maybe embracing some suck now and running packages to the door will pay dividends in the long run (like the next 20 years). Again I was just speculating.

 

[DB.Cooper]

In 20 years, it might be all robots and drones....

 

[uselesshasbeen]

(like the next 20 years)

Sorry, for those of you with plans to include twenty years. I'm not lasting that long, and when I go I'm taking it all with me.

 

[RDruckus]

C$$ said "I agree some of the new time standards are concerning. And why haven't we seen the results of the engineering study (the underpinning for these new standards?) These are questions we need to be pressing the union with."
That question is one that I would like answered by the assoc. The time study engineers created the standards and have verified them and are now collecting information and mapping all routes in the country. Why have we not been told the results from the study routes! The results must be known! Information is being kept from us and that is the main reason for discontent with the assoc. Lack of good communication with the people that pay their salaries. This change in evaluating routes is the biggest change that I can remember for rural carriers but for some reason our leaders are withholding information from us. What are they afraid of? I have endorsed the new system in principle but until I can see how my route was actually affected, it's hard to give it a wholehearted endorsement. If my route does not go up substantially with the new system then something is drastically wrong. To our leaders...take your heads out of the sand and have the decency and honesty to provide your members with relevant information, regularly!

I was going to say exactly this.
Thank you.

(NRLCA is hiding the study results because they fear our reaction. )

 

[flash]

Most carriers don’t understand the current “count” system. Why would anyone at USPS believe we would understand the RRECS system?
People on this forum argue everyday about what we should be doing, not be doing, and then ?‍ That’s what I do, ......
So where does it start? With our RCAs....
If the USPS says an RCA can’t bid on a route for 1 year, then that entire year should be dedicated to learning (aka academy). That is where they should be learning about all forms, know what the forms are, where to find them. Etc. they should get edit book training. They should have all training for count or RRECS or whatever the new count will be called. Alternative ways of casing and marking. Cause why the heck do we try to squish every person into a format that mostly doesn’t work anymore anyway? Why can’t it be here’s the job that needs to be done and here’s 5 ways to do it.
And you can bet your sweet patuty (sp) that suddenly forms and procedures that are outdated would be going by the wayside quickly as they wouldn’t be wasting paid training time.
Like all things in government, the process it takes to make a change is a huge process... and if it wasn’t for some of us carriers who work off the clock and put the extra time into our subs I don’t think we’d have any left. The system is not necessarily broken, but has been manned by people who are content to do the least amount of work as possible and hover over the time clock waiting for that first click !
I am dumb enough to believe We can change some of the ridiculous things that we face , but it has to be some sort of collective voice. I don’t know anything about the union or have I ever thought it was worthy of my $. But we do need some changes, or streamlining or something.

 

[marked]

Don't you think if rrecs favored the USPS it would have been implemented by now? Remember that is the result of arbitration. It's the only thing that makes sense. They want to kept the status quo. They've realized that we'll actually be winners under rrecs. They've been dragging their feet and trying to figure out have to fiddle with the numbers to to get them in their favor (screwing us). I think we are in a position of strength and the union needs to press our advantage, hopefully they remember how to do that.

 

[Charlie Brown]

Yes, I agree it has been too long.

I've heard some conflicting reports about the test route data:
1) At SAC Ronnie said they had Merkel looking at the data.
2) Someone else said, during the ratification meetings, Knapp (I think) said the data was invalid and basically thrown out.

Was the data really "invalid" or just so bad for the carrier that they wanted to hide the results???

I'll admit I didn't do any comparisons (because I no longer have a dog in this fight) but what I saw of the RRECS standards did not look promising.

I also don't believe the USPS is dragging their feet on implementation.
They can't try to jam this in to place without having all the routes properly mapped and all the data to figure each carries pay properly.

 

[Old Fart]

I was going to say exactly this.
Thank you.

(NRLCA is hiding the study results because they fear our reaction. )

If standards and test results are hidden, then it's pretty obvious that there's something in them they don't want us to know.

 

[Old Fart]

The guiding principle to any evaluation system SHOULD be fair work for fair pay, to compensate carriers equitably for what an time average worker would complete the tasks within. Perhaps, even relax those benchmarks slightly, as half the workforce can't be below average. These principles come from industry outside government, where profit and success are mandatory.

What I keep reading is the new system is NOT transparent, does NOT have visibility and support of those doing the work, and it's NOT fair because as of now, carriers, good ones, are working lots of hours that under the new system they won't be paid for. So exactly how's the work going to get completed without pay? What does management do, when all carriers are continually over their new evaluations?

These concerns had better be addressed, not just for carriers, but for the entire leadership group. If it's implemented and is a total failure, the bottom line is the mail MUST still be delivered, and this will not happen -- a fundamental stoppage -- if there isn't something CLOSE to fair utilized. This is reality.

 

[Old Fart]

My suggestion? Open up ALL the calculations, tests, studies, principles to the carriers. This will expose unfair pieces quickly. It will either validate and bring trust to the work or it will cause mass dissent and mistrust. But those opinions will be fact based.

Next, find where there are big issues with underpayment for work and address those.

Next, reduce the massive complexity and reliance on bogus data. The system MUST be fair to 80% of carriers OR MORE to be fair to all. Reality is there are 10% subpar in any group anywhere. So any system MUST give adequate compensation for work to the vast majority of those doing the work Whatever revisions are necessary, including allowing for much more flexibility where it's needed (we have vastly different types of routes, geographies, etc. within rural environment) Hello there, each DAY is different, and numerous issues (weather, size or type of actual mail pieces or parcels) can affect a day's delivery!

As of now, there's no trust, no transparency, no confidence. We already know management above our locals believe we're an unnecessary evil and would love to replace us with a machine, our union is as close to worthless except for a few minor grievances at local level. WE DO THE WORK, so without US there is NO delivery. Who's representing US? To me, nobody.