Can you get fired for excessive reverses?

lordhelmetk98

New member
As a regular carrier I've been threatened by the pm I could get fired for too many excessive reverses. Ive never had an accident except for hitting deer . I try my best but sometimes you gotta back up. Especially for dogs. Could I get fired?
 

PastOThirty

Well-known member
Avoid and minimize whenever possible. They can’t make it more concrete or strict, because backing is a legitimate driving technique that is required on occasion.

If they want to press the issue, they will, but understand that not all backing is equal:

- under 5 mph supposedly doesn’t register, so slow down when minimizing required backing

- under 50 feet will not be flagged, so try not to back so far [in one continuous shot]. If you have to back a long distance and there is no other way, stop for 3-5 seconds easily less than two car lengths. Why two car lengths? Most passenger vehicles and light trucks fit in a 24x24 garage; 24 times two is 48; 48 is less than 50. Why 3-5 seconds, that is roughly what length of pause for the system to consider an event on progress to have ended and to start a new event.

But better still than gaming the system with mostly arbitrary technical boundaries that may change, avoid backing by playing their safety theater game:

- filing a 1767 for safety concerns to get route line of travel and customer placement of boxes changed to eliminate backing and u-turns

- any remaining routine backing or turn around should be explicit on the 4003 (line of travel).

- leave notice for the packages that take you down driveways that have no safe and practical non-destructive turnaround
 

Morty

Well-known member
I've hit one deer, no damage. Hit a cow...now that does major damage!
As a regular carrier I've been threatened by the pm I could get fired for too many excessive reverses... Could I get fired?
Yes you can, as long as it's progressive. Of course it's up to them to find where exactly in the ELM or pom or m38 or po603 where it says backing is prohibited.

As a proactive measure, I would and have grieved threats to establish a firm rule. Your settlement should back our rights to back. And further, it should be established that your mileage INCREASE to negate backing. Which I've also successfully gotten, as well as authorized dismounts.
 

ATCBigE

Well-known member
As a regular carrier I've been threatened by the pm I could get fired for too many excessive reverses. Ive never had an accident except for hitting deer . I try my best but sometimes you gotta back up. Especially for dogs. Could I get fired?

Doubtful. But you never know with this place. They would try.

Heck one winter, I backed up over 3/4 miles down a road because of snow (turn around had pile of snow in it). Never heard a word about it from my supervisor.
 

psd181

Well-known member
Did they see you back up umpteen times? or was it the scanner? The scanner doesn't know if you are going forwards backwards or sideways. It just knows it's going. If you stop and get out and carry a missed parcel to the box behind you, the scanner doesn't know if you are driving forward backwards or even driving. It knows it went this way and now it's backtracking........... hell what if fell out of the window and slid down a hill ....... is that backing?
 

psd181

Well-known member
Hell I backed up 1/2 mile at 30 mph the other day........ got up to house and they were having a football party no way to turn around without tearing up the yard.......... so down the the driveway at 30 mph LOL
 

Old Fart

Well-known member
Avoid and minimize whenever possible. They can’t make it more concrete or strict, because backing is a legitimate driving technique that is required on occasion.

If they want to press the issue, they will, but understand that not all backing is equal:

- under 5 mph supposedly doesn’t register, so slow down when minimizing required backing

- under 50 feet will not be flagged, so try not to back so far [in one continuous shot]. If you have to back a long distance and there is no other way, stop for 3-5 seconds easily less than two car lengths. Why two car lengths? Most passenger vehicles and light trucks fit in a 24x24 garage; 24 times two is 48; 48 is less than 50. Why 3-5 seconds, that is roughly what length of pause for the system to consider an event on progress to have ended and to start a new event.

But better still than gaming the system with mostly arbitrary technical boundaries that may change, avoid backing by playing their safety theater game:

- filing a 1767 for safety concerns to get route line of travel and customer placement of boxes changed to eliminate backing and u-turns

- any remaining routine backing or turn around should be explicit on the 4003 (line of travel).

- leave notice for the packages that take you down driveways that have no safe and practical non-destructive turnaround
all the above is great advice

you may also want to talk to your DR. City carriers in our offices indicate they can't be disciplined using scanner backing data as it's inaccurate, the supervisor must physically observe the backing.
 

EthelAnne

Well-known member
Did they see you back up umpteen times? or was it the scanner? The scanner doesn't know if you are going forwards backwards or sideways. It just knows it's going. If you stop and get out and carry a missed parcel to the box behind you, the scanner doesn't know if you are driving forward backwards or even driving. It knows it went this way and now it's backtracking........... hell what if fell out of the window and slid down a hill ....... is that backing?
AFAIK, scanner data still cannot be used for discipline due to inaccuracy and unreliability (that is, they can try to discipline you using it, but they will lose the grievance), so as @psd181 points out, unless the supervisor actually witnessed the event, they won't prevail with discipline.

Regarding whether or not the scanner knows if you're driving or walking--it determines that by how fast it's moving, etc. So theoretically, it "knows" if you're walking or driving, but, again, unreliable/inaccurate. There are all sorts of ways to screw with the information the scanner collects, which you can find out by Googling . . .
 

Postm@n

Well-known member
I've hit one deer, no damage. Hit a cow...now that does major damage!

Yes you can, as long as it's progressive. Of course it's up to them to find where exactly in the ELM or pom or m38 or po603 where it says backing is prohibited.

As a proactive measure, I would and have grieved threats to establish a firm rule. Your settlement should back our rights to back. And further, it should be established that your mileage INCREASE to negate backing. Which I've also successfully gotten, as well as authorized dismounts.
THIS

Absolutely file a grievance about this threat "You could be fired". PM's are not suppose to be saying that.
 

Postm@n

Well-known member
I believe it’s right in the definition they put out about a hostile work environment and bullying.

Zero tolerance my A$$. <—- is that ok to say? 🤪🤐🤐
This is exactly what happened in my office. Grievance was filed asking "Am I safe in this office from bullying and a hostile work environment?"

If your PM is a bully and says stuff constantly like "you can be fired" etc... File that grievance... Union will take this very seriously.
 

btdtret

Well-known member
lordhelmetk98 -- "As a regular carrier I've been threatened by the pm I could get fired for too many excessive reverses."

-- Politely as you can, request SPECIFIC dates, times, and locations.

-- Just be aware there are plenty of security cameras out there!

-- The NRLCA has yet to get specific about no discipline based solely on scanner data.

-- Don't forget your future pay is going to be associated with the ( inaccurate ) scanners.
 

Old Fart

Well-known member
AFAIK, scanner data still cannot be used for discipline due to inaccuracy and unreliability (that is, they can try to discipline you using it, but they will lose the grievance), so as @psd181 points out, unless the supervisor actually witnessed the event, they won't prevail with discipline.

Regarding whether or not the scanner knows if you're driving or walking--it determines that by how fast it's moving, etc. So theoretically, it "knows" if you're walking or driving, but, again, unreliable/inaccurate. There are all sorts of ways to screw with the information the scanner collects, which you can find out by Googling . . .
City carriers in our offices have been flagged for walking "backwards in reverse" a number of times, proving the scanner can't actually determine if it's in the vehicle or on a walking carrier.
 

Deer Smearer

Well-known member
City carriers in our offices have been flagged for walking "backwards in reverse" a number of times, proving the scanner can't actually determine if it's in the vehicle or on a walking carrier.
And every single time this happens it should be documented and accumulated to provide proof of scanner unreliability when used as the basis for discipline.
 

Worve

Well-known member
And every single time this happens it should be documented and accumulated to provide proof of scanner unreliability when used as the basis for discipline.
Have a log and documentation for the 3 times it has happened to me. Yes I’m a slow learner I now walk slower then a grandma with a walker. Pretty sure it happens a lot more then people realize just management never brings it up. Why would they it would prove beyond a reasonable doubt the scanners are worthless in any regards to accuracy.
 

EthelAnne

Well-known member
City carriers in our offices have been flagged for walking "backwards in reverse" a number of times, proving the scanner can't actually determine if it's in the vehicle or on a walking carrier.
Yeah, like I said, the data the scanner collects is often inaccurate. When we first got the second generation scanners, my supervisor, in total seriousness, asked me why I had sat IN THE MIDDLE OF AN INTERSECTION for ten minutes on my route. This is how stupid they are (and vindictive— I was a new steward at the time and he was trying to intimidate me). This same PM came to me absolutely befuddled by the fact that I had selected “Left with customer” scan on a delivered parcel. Most of them are morons, and their stupidity is compounded by the fact that they don’t use the equipment and they don’t understand it. Nobody receives training in this stuff when they roll it out, but at least we’re self-taught—these jerks don’t have the opportunity or the desire to learn how to use it.

But, back to the point of the OP, don’t worry too much about what any supervisor tells you about info collected by the scanner. It’s a total empty threat and if they try to discipline you, grieve it.
 

Old Fart

Well-known member
Yeah, like I said, the data the scanner collects is often inaccurate. When we first got the second generation scanners, my supervisor, in total seriousness, asked me why I had sat IN THE MIDDLE OF AN INTERSECTION for ten minutes on my route. This is how stupid they are (and vindictive— I was a new steward at the time and he was trying to intimidate me). This same PM came to me absolutely befuddled by the fact that I had selected “Left with customer” scan on a delivered parcel. Most of them are morons, and their stupidity is compounded by the fact that they don’t use the equipment and they don’t understand it. Nobody receives training in this stuff when they roll it out, but at least we’re self-taught—these jerks don’t have the opportunity or the desire to learn how to use it.

But, back to the point of the OP, don’t worry too much about what any supervisor tells you about info collected by the scanner. It’s a total empty threat and if they try to discipline you, grieve it.
and the great news is this same device is the one that's going to determine our compensation....wooo hooo!!
 
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