Following orders = losing job?

[GiraffeAE86]

So I've been lurking around the forum since December and I finally have something to post about.

I've been an RCA for about a month now and my coworkers tell me I've been catching on pretty good up until this happened to me..

I wake up to a phone call to come in early to do a different route, no biggie (originally was scheduled later in the day to do a route because the regular can't deliver it but can case it all). By the time I got up there I was essentially 2 hours behind everyone else. The workload was massive, literally double what it normally has. I only had enough time to pull down the flats that were cased the night before and set up my SPRs and parcels, I barely had enough room in the truck and ended up taking 8 trays of DPS and 5 trays of flats to the street. Before I left I told management I was going to need some help, seeing as I had probably one of the fattest routes that day and it was my first attempt on it. I was 2nd to last to get out of the office.

5 o'clock rolls around and I call the office to see if they're going to send me some help. 45 minutes later 2 people show up, one guy takes my parcels and the other guy takes about half of my DPS and flats and tells me hes going to meet up with another carrier who will also help me by helping him. That leaves me with all the SPRs and half of the DPS and flats. Ok, cool.

7:30 - I get a phone call from the 204B and was told to deliver for 10 more minutes and then bring all the mail back, I told him exactly what the other carriers took from me and what I had left in my truck and they said to bring it all back. ALL. Ok, cool.

7:50 - I walk in through the doors and the PM immediately tells me to leave everything at the case and just take off, to which I say.. I'll just put on my greencard 7:50 because there's things I need to do at the case before I leave. Their response: Ok, cool. So I cart in whatever mail I had left and put everything at the case along with ~60 SPRs and I ask what do I need to do with these? Both 204B and PM tell me to scan them up as Customer Hold, so I do just that.

I had the next 2 days off because of Jury Duty and fast forward to today I had a PDI involving hiding mail and not doing the duties the job asked me to. I'm basically in boiling water because of doing what I was told. I also found out today that apparently if you know you're out on a route and you can't get any help for whatever reason that standard protocol is to just stop delivering mail and deliver packages (SPRs are considered packages too which I guess is on me but that is besides the point). Neither myself or the other people who started the same time I did knew about that at any point.

tl;dr I followed direct orders and I'm not past my 90 days, It's my word against management and our union rep says we can't make it seem like we are going after management, how screwed am I?

 

[Deer Smearer]

As a probationary employee they can fire you for any reason with or without cause. The union cannot do anything to fight that.

But you are entitled to representation at any discussion that might lead to discipline.

Lesson 1... never attend a PDI without representation.

A good steward would immediately bring up the order to falsify scans as attempted or hold and that should stop the issue in its tracks. Yes, you will have the problem of possibe termination until probation ends. You've already learned manglement doesn't give a crap about you.

They can hide falsified scans. They can't send the all clear until you're back. Don't work off the clock - ever. If they say drop an go, do so. Log off that scanner asap so they can't use it under your log in to falsify stuff.

Try to text discussions, don't call. That leaves somewhat of a paper trail for improper instructions. Watch your back. Document everything you are told with dates, times, witnesses, etc.

Good luck.

 

[GiraffeAE86]

For what it's worth I had the steward with me during the PDI and the steward said that the PM came up with the questions in a way that would protect them. I just think this is a case of stuff rolling downhill, rather than management getting in trouble they'll just fodder it off on me.

 

[gerl2]

So much for our Post Master General stating to work with all subs? Maybe you can write to the Postmaster general Brennan about your incident. Just saying this is happening more and more. I believe that postmasters get tired of the misdeliveries from new subs and just want regulars on routes so they don't get the phone calls or their rating that would affect their bonuses.

 

[Deer Smearer]

For what it's worth I had the steward with me during the PDI and the steward said that the PM came up with the questions in a way that would protect them. I just think this is a case of stuff rolling downhill, rather than management getting in trouble they'll just fodder it off on me.

Part of a stewards responsibility is to make sure PDI questions are not ambiguous, misleading, or trapping.

"Why did you fail to deliver the parcels?"
vs
"Why weren't these parcels delivered?"

Subtle but distinct differences.

Carefully answering questions with as few words and information as possible is best.

Write down the question verbatim. Write down the response verbatim. Consider it's meaning and when you believe it answers the question with as little information as possible read the response to manglement.

 

[Gotrope]

There is no set time allowance to answer a question. Breath, reflect upon your answer. Take a tablet with you, give only facts and yes and no answers only... if you can.

If the scans were missed this is the cause if your PDI. It does roll down hill. District has to show area what they did to correct the problem. Local supervisor has to show district what they did to correct the problem.

It's a question of mgmt priorities. All scannable items are the first priority as their is an electronic record anyone can access. Paper mail, coverages, flats, not so much a priority as they can claim it was delivered whenever they say it was without electronic record.

Tell your mgr you will handle the mail any way they want...at least until your probation is over?
And please, follow the order to not work off the clock - That's Bad for you, bad for mgmt, bad for craft.

 

[Deer Smearer]

As a follow up to the PDI, if any discipline is even contemplated, consider the following.

As Gotrope mentioned, manglement considers anything with a scan to be priority. But committed mail is committed mail. Ask manglement for written instructions to fail to deliver comitted mail or to scan items attempted or held when that's not an accurate scan. You're steward may have been sincere when they suggested not going after manglement. In reality you need to turn the failures into their failures to schedule and plan.

Every morning they have to do an AM clearance certifying all committed mail has left the building. Every evening they have to do a PM clearance certifying all comitted mail was delivered and the office is clear of all outgoing mail.

Ask for a copy of those certifications. If they said the office was clear and it wasn't then it's their problem.

 

[GiraffeAE86]

I had a steward bark at me and belittle me in front of a supervisor.
Sleeping with the enemy? Perhaps.......

As far as that goes I don't think so, I get along with everyone up there including manglement (I know).

Carefully answering questions with as few words and information as possible is best.

There is no set time allowance to answer a question. Breath, reflect upon your answer. Take a tablet with you, give only facts and yes and no answers only... if you can.

I definitely did that.

I mean, I felt really good about the PDI and considering I was in court the day prior it felt like a cakewalk.

I'm guessing there's going to be something hitting the fan when they find out what my time sheet says and what the scanner says

Every morning they have to do an AM clearance certifying all committed mail has left the building. Every evening they have to do a PM clearance certifying all comitted mail was delivered and the office is clear of all outgoing mail.

Ask for a copy of those certifications. If they said the office was clear and it wasn't then it's their problem.

Not sure what I can do about this before they call me back and let me know if I have a job or not.

 

[DB.Cooper]

Why do they want to get rid of a RCA that has some potential, when it seems they can't easily hire anyone??? Plus it costs time and $$$ money to hire new peeps... ?

 

[DB.Cooper]

G-Man (or woman)... let them know you'd like to keep the job and are doing the best you can, if that's how you feel... also know they may be doing you a GREAT favor by letting you out of this circus before you have too much time invested in it... jmho... ??‍

 

[BeatsAll-IEverSeen]

Part of a stewards responsibility is to make sure PDI questions are not ambiguous, misleading, or trapping.

A steward cannot dictate the wording of a question. If management wants to ask leading questions then they have that right. Most local supervisors/pms aren't that sophisticated -- it's usually trained investigators (OIG agents / inspectors) who have it down to an art.

The job of a steward is to explain what a leading question is and how to sidestep the trap. The weakness and poor logic of a vague or misleading question can be exposed in the Union's contentions and disputed facts. The PDI is not the step 1 meeting -- if management is casting a ridiculous argument or mucking the whole thing up on a procedural level then the last thing I'm giving is a free tutorial on what NOT to do.

 

[btdtret]

GiraffeAE86 -- [ raw deal from manglement for following orders ]

" today I had a PDI involving hiding mail and not doing the duties the job asked me to. "

-- Now that is out of the way, document everything you can remember from that day -- from the time you got the call to the time you left the office.
-- Ask those two who came out to help to do the same.

-- If there is another time out on the route, start calling in at 3 or 4 o'clock, depending on the work load and particularly if on a brand new route. Because plan on the dispatch truck leaving between 5 and 6 pm. ( you'll know better than I on this )

" I also found out today that apparently if you know you're out on a route and you can't get any help for whatever reason that standard protocol is to just stop delivering mail and deliver packages (SPRs are considered packages too which I guess is on me but that is besides the point). " ( that's BS!! )

-- Politely ask manglement for a reference to that "protocol".

-- As previously noted:

- Still being within your probationary period, you are literally "fair game" for manglement to fire you for no good reason. And that is despite the postmaster general's edit of a couple years ago to "keep RCA's at all costs". Best guestimate now is that it costs the USPS about $10,000 to get someone from the street to carrying the mail.

- Any time "asked to come to the office", have someone come along ( mainly to as a witness to what was "discussed" to prevent a "the RCA said, the PM said" incident. You were fortunate to have a steward in with you. )

- Ask manglement for a record of your scanner data for the day in question. You may get "Sorry, that is no longer available." Again - BS. There is a record somewhere in the vast USPS record keeping system. How else do they know you supposedly missed a scan? Anyone??

"For what it's worth I had the steward with me during the PDI and the steward said that the PM came up with the questions in a way that would protect them. I just think this is a case of stuff rolling downhill, rather than management getting in trouble they'll just fodder it off on me."

-- Congratulations, you are learning fast! It is not just a rumor when you hear postal employees say "If manglement's lips are moving, it's probably a lie."

" It's my word against management and our union rep says we can't make it seem like we are going after management, how screwed am I? "

-- The first part is true.

-- Going after manglement will be cleared up should manglement produce the scanner data.

-- As far as the "awkward" position you are in.

- If fired, while not the best thing, one way to look at it is the USPS is doing you a BIG favor in letting you go early. You've had a great example of the treatment you could be looking at for the rest of your time with the USPS.

- If kept, you have had a HUGE "lesson learned" experience.

- Not to belittle your "handle" but it is better to be a "turtle" DURING your probationary period ( and long after that ) than to be a "giraffe" when first starting out.

-- Wondering what to do with that information you and hopefully others wrote down? Make sure all the i's are dotted and the t's crossed as it may become evidence in future endeavors.

-- Postal Inspectors just love to hear about mail being "mistreated" ( aka "hidden" or scanner input falsified ).

-- If you get fired or kept, it will be your choice to make a phone call - or not.

-- In any case, hopefully the post office is not the only available job in your area.

-- Good luck.

 

[Morty]

The reality: someone filed an electronic complaint. The PM threw you under the bus to cover their arse. I also got a PDI for following orders, then an electronic complaint, then i get the blame.

You are an RCA, you are safe.

 

[Rt2mailman]

For your information and for the next time, in all official PDI's you should be given (at the end) a point where you are allowed to to add your input. The question usually is, "Do you have anything else to add?" At that point you say exactly what happened and what you were told by management and how you were not given any instruction to stop and deliver only spr's. That way you have a record of what you find to be truthful.
Most likely nothing will come of this because the USPS has to keep all the subs they can right now because most are quitting. My guess is the pm or supervisor got in hot water with their manager because someone was out that close to 8PM, a big no no, since the USPS allowed an RCA to die on the route and nobody knew until late and found her at 10PM. They need you as much as you think you need this job, be at peace and stop worrying.

 

[DB.Cooper]

I'd be surprised if they really want to can anybody over this... as I said, it'll cost them $$$ money and time to hire anybody new... and they don't like that...

 

[GiraffeAE86]

-- If you get fired or kept, it will be your choice to make a phone call - or not.

To who?

Politely ask manglement for a reference to that "protocol".

Is that really not a thing?

You are an RCA, you are safe.

You might've missed the part where I haven't passed my 90 days yet. But I hope you're right.

in all official PDI's you should be given (at the end) a point where you are allowed to to add your input. The question usually is, "Do you have anything else to add?" At that point you say exactly what happened and what you were told by management and how you were not given any instruction to stop and deliver only spr's.

And I did just that, that's why I believe my case to be as strong as it is outside of the fact I can be canned for nothing

Also I just recently found out that the route I was originally supposed to be on that day was carried by other new people from another station and they brought parcels back, yet I'm the only one nailed with a PDI.

Very cool.

 

[Deer Smearer]

To who?



Also I just recently found out that the route I was originally supposed to be on that day was carried by other new people from another station and they brought parcels back, yet I'm the only one nailed with a PDI.

That's the bottom line. Some of the parcels you brough back didn't have a falsified stop the clock scan.

 

[GiraffeAE86]

So lets assume that is the case, is that on me or on management? Would there be a report on something if it got left behind or even missed or perhaps even showed up after I left, who gets the blame for that? At the end of the day there was 4 people touching the same route.

 

[Rt2mailman]

As you said your managers borrowed other subs from another office, that means your office is sub short, YOU ARE NEEDED. As of a couple of years ago our union obtained from the postmaster general an agreement that all firings of ANY Rca's receive the approval of the district manager, that is never going to happen. Unless you are stealing, doing drugs, drinking, or fighting, you aren't going to be fired in today's USPS climate of low Rca retention. Don't think twice about this again, you are fine.

 

[btdtret]

GiraffeAE86 -- "-- If you get fired or kept, it will be your choice to make a phone call - or not. "

-- First talk to your Assistant District Representative. Your steward should have his/her number. ( IMHO - don't think your office steward was much help, but that is for another time. ) Tell the ADR details of your "bad day" and that manglement hid or had you enter false entries on the scanner i.e. "Customer Hold" for parcels not delivered but brought back to the office.

-- The ADR may decide if a call to the Postal Inspectors is warranted or advisable or to deal with local manglement.

" I also found out today that apparently if you know you're out on a route and you can't get any help for whatever reason that standard protocol is to just stop delivering mail and deliver packages (SPRs are considered packages too which I guess is on me but that is besides the point). " ( that's BS!! )

-- I've been out for a while, but doubt such a "protocol" exists. If it does, then manglement should have no problem in producing a REAL postal reference.

-- While at it, ask for the reference to scan parcels as "Customer Hold" when ordered to return to the office without delivering them.

"that's why I believe my case to be as strong.."

-- You can believe that, but you are in the unenviable position of having your word vs entrenched members of manglement should District personnel get involved. Your local manglement has already tossed you under the bus ( why don't we use "LLV", which would be more appropriate, but I digress ) once. When faced with them or you, guess who ( usually ) loses?

-- Best to hope someone actually asks for the scanner records - then it will be manglement who has to do the explaining.

-- A post master and several supervisors were fired in Richmond, VA for changing city carrier clock rings. Having ordered false scanner input is on the same level ( IMHO ).

-- If on the hot seat ( some type of investigation ), do your best to keep answers to "yes" or "no" and don't volunteer information. "I don't recall." or "To the best of my knowledge." seems to work wonders in Washington, DC. Some how point out to whoever that you were following orders of your superiors ( which they probably will deny ).

-- Based upon the shortage of subs, the cost already invested in you, and because of the postmaster general's edict to "keep RCA's at all costs." you should be ( relatively ) safe in keeping your job ( if you really want it ).

-- On the other hand, if let go, actually the USPS has done you a favor. Be sure to write up what happened to you in great detail ( dates and names ) and send the letter to the Postmaster General of the USPS. ( Google it if the office steward or ADR can't provide it ).

-- Keep us in the loop for further developments.