leaving certifieds discussion

[Oi veh.]

continued from this thread:

How long are we required to wait when delivering certifieds?

So I deliver to a large number of business offices, these businesses get a decent amount of certifieds. Typically these businesses have a receptionist who accepts the mail, but often they feel they need to call/find a supervisor before they are willing to sign for it. How long do we have to wait...

www.ruralmailtalk.com

 

[too many yrs left]

Interesting to read these comments. I had about given up on NOT leaving items after someone has left the 3849. And I DO know that's not what we are supposed to do but everyone else does it and I've been told by mgt to do it. I guess I should point out to them Oi Veh's comment about being able to disregard a directive if we know it to be illegal!

 

[Deer Smearer]

Interesting to read these comments. I had about given up on NOT leaving items after someone has left the 3849. And I DO know that's not what we are supposed to do but everyone else does it and I've been told by mgt to do it. I guess I should point out to them Oi Veh's comment about being able to disregard a directive if we know it to be illegal!

I often hear the statement we can refuse an order if it is illegal, immoral, or unsafe.

For starters, immoral doesn’t hold water. That dog won’t hunt.

Unsafe? Absolutely.

Illegal… the technical part of that argument is it has to be against a specific law or ordinance. Postal regulations are not necessarily laws. For example, if an LLV has a dead battery manglement might order you to leave it unlocked and running instead of turning it off. Those are postal policies and regulations being bypassed, not necessarily laws. You might not have an unsafe argument to make. However, some states make it illegal to leave unattended vehicles running. That argument might have legs.

 

[Mail Escort]

I often hear the statement we can refuse an order if it is illegal, immoral, or unsafe.

For starters, immoral doesn’t hold water. That dog won’t hunt.

Unsafe? Absolutely.

Illegal… the technical part of that argument is it has to be against a specific law or ordinance. Postal regulations are not necessarily laws. For example, if an LLV has a dead battery manglement might order you to leave it unlocked and running instead of turning it off. Those are postal policies and regulations being bypassed, not necessarily laws. You might not have an unsafe argument to make. However, some states make it illegal to leave unattended vehicles running. That argument might have legs.

how about delivering parcels and not touching first class mail? Can point right to a US Statute but I’m guessing that won’t fly either.

 

[neciat]

From the PO-610
Handbook PO-610, Signature Capture and Electronic Record Management: Man-
ager’s Guide to Standard Operating Procedures

The recipient (or agent) must be present to accept a signature item. If the
recipient (or agent) is not available to sign for the item, the delivery employee
must leave a notice. The delivery employee must check the box on the front
of the PS Form 3849 that states, “If checked, you or your agent must be
present at the time of delivery to sign for item,” and must record the
appropriate scan event. A signed PS Form 3849 left by a customer does not
constitute a valid signature for delivery. Exceptions for signature capture are
allowed only for items that are endorsed with a Waiver of Signature. See
subchapter 2-11 for information on Signature Waiver

I know our 3849s say one thing and THIS says another but we often forget about the customer who's money we have already taken. THAT customer paid for the mail piece to be put in someone's hand. There are many scenarios that could occur with just leaving a mail piece. Misdelivered, stolen, damaged, lost, etc.

 

[gotstamps]

continued from this thread:

How long are we required to wait when delivering certifieds?

So I deliver to a large number of business offices, these businesses get a decent amount of certifieds. Typically these businesses have a receptionist who accepts the mail, but often they feel they need to call/find a supervisor before they are willing to sign for it. How long do we have to wait...

www.ruralmailtalk.com

In what I’m reading on the D-85 document, it doesn’t state Signature items (unless restricted) or Certifieds. What changes for Certs as to customer’s presence is when the Green Card is present so the Card MUST be signed, scanned as accepted, & placed in the outgoing. I don’t trust anyone to sign it & throw it in the outmail So those I do notate on the bottom of the 3849 that the customer MUST be present.
I haven’t seen the Electronic 3849 reminders in so long, I actually thought they did away with them. The clerks write our reminders up on the regular 3849 & don’t notate the need to be present which is deceiving to the customer when they read the back & sign it.

 

[gotstamps]

From the PO-610
Handbook PO-610, Signature Capture and Electronic Record Management: Man-
ager’s Guide to Standard Operating Procedures

The recipient (or agent) must be present to accept a signature item. If the
recipient (or agent) is not available to sign for the item, the delivery employee
must leave a notice. The delivery employee must check the box on the front
of the PS Form 3849 that states, “If checked, you or your agent must be
present at the time of delivery to sign for item,” and must record the
appropriate scan event. A signed PS Form 3849 left by a customer does not
constitute a valid signature for delivery. Exceptions for signature capture are
allowed only for items that are endorsed with a Waiver of Signature. See
subchapter 2-11 for information on Signature Waiver

I know our 3849s say one thing and THIS says another but we often forget about the customer who's money we have already taken. THAT customer paid for the mail piece to be put in someone's hand. There are many scenarios that could occur with just leaving a mail piece. Misdelivered, stolen, damaged, lost, etc.

The PO really needs to update the PO-610. Their info is conflicting with more up-to-date documentation including the 3849s that it references all through it.

 

[Deer Smearer]

So a certified cannot be left in a customer’s locked post office box at the post office even when the customer pays for a premium post office box, signs the agreement, and has a signed 3849 signature on file.

But Joe Shmoe’s signature on a 3849 in East BFE somehow allows it even though an eSOL electronic signature the customer left through their informed delivery also doesn’t permit it.

 

[Gotrope]

I often hear the statement we can refuse an order if it is illegal, immoral, or unsafe.

For starters, immoral doesn’t hold water. That dog won’t hunt.

Unsafe? Absolutely.

Illegal… the technical part of that argument is it has to be against a specific law or ordinance. Postal regulations are not necessarily laws. For example, if an LLV has a dead battery manglement might order you to leave it unlocked and running instead of turning it off. Those are postal policies and regulations being bypassed, not necessarily laws. You might not have an unsafe argument to make. However, some states make it illegal to leave unattended vehicles running. That argument might have legs.

A violation national postal policies is to be avoided, local butthead cannot rewrite policy. If it can get you fired or disciplined, you have a right to dispute the order.

 

[Deer Smearer]

A violation national postal policies is to be avoided, local butthead cannot rewrite policy. If it can get you fired or disciplined, you have a right to dispute the order.

Yes, you have the right to dispute the order, in writing. 665.15 Tread carefully disobeying it.

I firmly believe direct orders should be given in writing if requested and we should be able to record manglement behavior and treatment of carriers.

That would significantly reduce the BS.

 

[Deer Smearer]

Sideways discussion from topic, but to what extent can you insist on a verbal order be in writing, or you will not follow it, without risk of failure follow?

You really cannot. You can ask. Best case it to have witnesses that will speak on your behalf. I’m adamant about not using your personal phone at work. However, manglement usually won’t hesitate to force their directives through a text.

Once they say it’s a direct order that failing to follow can result in discipline up to and including termination all bets are off.

 

[Gotrope]

You really cannot. You can ask. Best case it to have witnesses that will speak on your behalf. I’m adamant about not using your personal phone at work. However, manglement usually won’t hesitate to force their directives through a text.

Once they say it’s a direct order that failing to follow can result in discipline up to and including termination all bets are off.

It's a good thing lots of us don't take a lunch. When given stupid orders you can immediately notify mgmt of a low blood sugar event and make a call to DR while snacking. You know, it's best to be speaking to someone who can render aid in an emergency.

 

[neciat]

View attachment 7522
So a certified cannot be left in a customer’s locked post office box at the post office even when the customer pays for a premium post office box, signs the agreement, and has a signed 3849 signature on file.

But Joe Shmoe’s signature on a 3849 in East BFE somehow allows it even though an eSOL electronic signature the customer left through their informed delivery also doesn’t permit it.

Only the SENDER can approve, initiate, "okay" , etc. the electronic signature.

 

[Deer Smearer]

Only the SENDER can approve, initiate, "okay" , etc. the electronic signature.

I believe it’s like express is now. Express used to default to signature required. Now it defaults to not required unless requested.

eSOL is a allowed unless the sender requests otherwise.

 

[Oi veh.]

@too many yrs left to be clear, i have done battle with my PM for many a year.

i've pretty much won the war - she doesn't tell me to do stupid things, unsafe things, illegal things, immoral things, contact me on my phone or scanner, etc etc etc

if you have not brought your manglement to heel, i wouldn't suggest starting with something big.

start small, educating as you go on procedures, contract and so on.

once they know you know what you're talking about, they leave you alone.

in my experience, anyway.

your mileage may vary.

 

[Morty]

One of my many 14 day suspensions was leaving an accountable in the box. Resident went on usps.com and filed an electronic 3849, in comments section said leave in box.

History was that we always left them, clerks ordered us, pm ordered us.

So I did what the Resident wanted, who then filed a complaint for leaving it in the mailbox. All of a sudden, clerks and pm changed their tune. Now I'm getting discipline and was told if it went to step 2 that I would be fired because leaving accountable is a big no no.

So now I never leave an accountable. And a funny story, a few months after giving me a 14 day suspension, pm hands me a cert with a signed 3849 and says deliver it in the box. I make an attempt and bring it back. It then wants an I.I. as to why I didn't obey a direct order. It also went out and left the cert in the box, and I brought it back. I never will know what happens to a pm, because the next day the inspectors frog marched it out of the building for something I reported a few weeks earlier.

 

[Morty]

I'll add I did grieve the discipline and got a settlement that management will read and understand the accountable rules and instruct all employees and not require employees leave any accountable in a box or any where else.

 

[UnknownUser]

What do you all do about foreign registered parcels that aren't treated as registered?

 

[Deer Smearer]

What do you all do about foreign registered parcels that aren't treated as registered?

Does the scanner require a signature?

 

[UnknownUser]

Does the scanner require a signature?

Yes, usually they'll start with an R so the scanner thinks they are real reds. I think the majority of us in this area don't attempt to get a signature. Never heard a word about those. Sometimes it'll have the value for customs printed on them and can be valued for just a few bucks. I've thought about not scanning the barcode and using unscanable parcel to receive some credit. I don't know if those show up as a failure or not. They surely aren't paying for a registered and they aren't logged like a real red.

Unrelated but still accountable are postage due. Rrecs doesn't have a scan for attempting the item. I don't think 'trip to door misc' gives enough value so I've been either writing them up or paying them myself and collecting later using the scan for receiving payment for postage due.