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Lady Carrier

Well-known member
When we checked our DPS in the office to verify the addresses, we were told to not check every address but go through a tray in general (every few inches) and check for mass errors such as bundles of other routes mail or big amounts of missorts or other errors that may have been caused by such things as sweeping errors. We were told it should not take us more than a few seconds per tray, which we argued over each count. Some counts we were able to get 10-15 seconds per tray. This was just a general check (AKA riffling time) and not the same as going through the letters on the route. Is that what they were talking about? Has anyone had the assoc. clarify exactly what the new standards mean? Maybe West Coast Rural had a point in that we need to look at the whole forest instead of just one tree. We need further discussion and explanation from the assoc. also. We need to see how this new system is going to effect our routes as a whole and not just throw it out because of one or two misunderstood standards. I looked at RRECS as the best thing that could happen to us in years. Getting the right times for the things we do and getting paid for all (or at least most) of the things we do.
You are talking about riffling time that would go in column R. The standard under RRECS I was commenting on is the time it takes to verify the address. The 86 per minute is to read the address and determine if it gets delivered there or goes elsewhere.
Average DPS tray is 425. 425 (DPS pcs) / 86 (RRECS DPS PPM factor) =4.9411 min to sort a tray.

If we use the average of 15 min per DPS tray to sort and case correctly.... 15 (min) X 60 (SEC) = 900 seconds.... 900 (secs) / 425 (pcs DPS tray) = 2.117 secs per DPS piece.

Current values for DPS. POV 30 pcs per min. LLV 43pcs per min.

Using the 2.117 secs figured above.
POV... 30 (pcs per min) x 2.117 (secs) = 63.51 seconds
LLV.... 43 (pcs per min) x 2.117 (secs) = 91.03 seconds

I was thrilled at first about no more L status but delving deeper... 17 secs (box credit under RRECS) X 6 (days)=1.42 min per box. That box time factor is mighty close to current L route status. If the rumors are true that we will only be credited for boxes we stop at on a yearly computation a potential bigger loss.
15 mins/425 pieces = .0353 mins per piece / 60 seconds = 5.88 seconds per piece RRECS standard .0116/60 seconds = 1.93 seconds per piece to verify the address. That is assuming a DPS tray has 425 letters in it.
Windindaface used 15 mins to sort and case correctly and came up with 2.117 secs per piece, but the RRECS standard is to verify the address only.

We need to go thru DPS and just verify the address, no sorting, no casing, just verifying (it should be correct so we wouldn't actually be reading line for line the whole address, just glancing and determining yes that is the correct address or no it it not), then time how long it takes and divide by how many letters are in that tray to get a more accurate time.
I found your missing time. It’s been hiding in plain sight......your mailbox. Under RRECS we are paid actual time to do the work. With RRECS we are given 1.42 minutes to open and close the mailbox 6 times a week. Thats too much time. We probably use 6 seconds to open and close a mailbox. The same applies to ncbu.

Since we are based on actual performance, we pretty much lost all of our box time. It’s probably easier on the eyes that dps went down.
I agree with WestCoastRural, the mailbox time includes the time it takes to open the box, put in the mail, and shut the box. We are supposed to be able to gather DPS, flats, SPRs in one hand and put in mailbox in one motion.
 

Haychica

Well-known member
You are talking about riffling time that would go in column R. The standard under RRECS I was commenting on is the time it takes to verify the address. The 86 per minute is to read the address and determine if it gets delivered there or goes elsewhere.

15 mins/425 pieces = .0353 mins per piece / 60 seconds = 5.88 seconds per piece RRECS standard .0116/60 seconds = 1.93 seconds per piece to verify the address. That is assuming a DPS tray has 425 letters in it.
Windindaface used 15 mins to sort and case correctly and came up with 2.117 secs per piece, but the RRECS standard is to verify the address only.

We need to go thru DPS and just verify the address, no sorting, no casing, just verifying (it should be correct so we wouldn't actually be reading line for line the whole address, just glancing and determining yes that is the correct address or no it it not), then time how long it takes and divide by how many letters are in that tray to get a more accurate time.

I agree with WestCoastRural, the mailbox time includes the time it takes to open the box, put in the mail, and shut the box. We are supposed to be able to gather DPS, flats, SPRs in one hand and put in mailbox in one motion.
its not just about the address...we are to check the names...
We are to determine wether the name AND address are one of appx 14 different things...
Who does that in 4 minutes?...I have 1600 names on my route and those are the correct names...
Now, lets say the P.O. doesn't want to pay us to do this any more and our union agrees to it , who is going to notify the customers that they'll be getting all kinds of mail in their box now?...you know...the customers who meet us at the box with fury in their eyes when they get ONE piece of bad mail per week...
Imho...the union didn't challenge this or explain it correctly...smh...
 

Haychica

Well-known member
Havegonenow -- "Could you elaborate on the standard that you are talking about?" [ Haychica's -- " I read every address...until I see a directive(in writing) I will continue to supply our customers with this service. " ]

-- I would guess that would be Standard S144 -- Verify letter addresses ( a bit confusing as a letter should have only one address -- just picking at nits! )

-- The PO-603's Section 321.2 -- Verify Address -- Before placing mail in the receptacle, verify address accuracy.
AND we have to verify the NAMES...
 

Haychica

Well-known member
In my opinion the engineers came to these standards by reverse engineering the data from the trial period to fit a wide range of routes. They also have to compensate how long it took a carrier to finish a particular route.

I don’t think the engineers used a stop watch to time a carrier working dps at 86pc per minute. They probably play with the data to match the carriers work time. So IMHO...DPS time standard was based on calculations rather than using a stop watch to determine the standard. It is one of many calculations to determine the size of the route.

You are taking one tree to determine the size of the forest approach. Instead you need to look at the forest to determine how many trees are in the forest. The engineers are using that approach.
But just like in a forest, there's big ones, small ones, old ones and young ones...this is why hourly is so good...it pays ALL the trees the same...No one gets the" axe".
😉
 
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Lady Carrier

Well-known member
its not just about the address...we are to check the names...
We are to determine wether the name AND address are one of appx 14 different things...
Who does that in 4 minutes?...I have 1600 names on my route and those are the correct names...
Now, lets say the P.O. doesn't want to pay us to do this any more and our union agrees to it , who is going to notify the customers that they'll be getting all kinds of mail in their box now?...you know...the customers who meet us at the box with fury in their eyes when they get ONE piece of bad mail per week...
Imho...the union didn't challenge this or explain it correctly...smh...
I agree with you. USPS is so confident in their systems they think all FWD's are redirected (we know they aren't), HOLDs just get done (we carriers do it), and DPS only has the correct mail, on the correct day, in the correct order (we know it has incorrect mail -3M's, checks dated for next day or later, and sweeping errors - handful missplaced in the tray or dropped and then just stuffed in somewhere). So all those mistakes come out of DPS and get counted again and treated as raw mail.
Our customers expect us to be perfect, they many times don't realize what we do in a day. I had a customer all over me for a misdelivered package by a sub. The customer said "You have what, about 35 customers and you can't get it figured out where to deliver the package." To which I stated that I have 500 addresses averaging 4 people per address so that is 2000 customers and about every one get mail every day and about 100 get packages everyday but to different addresses each day. To which he said with sincerity "So sorry, I can't imagine anyone do all that in 1 day, every day, I'm glad it is you and not me." He is now very appreciative to get the correct mail and packages. Totally changed his attitude towards us carriers.
 

Haychica

Well-known member
I agree with you. USPS is so confident in their systems they think all FWD's are redirected (we know they aren't), HOLDs just get done (we carriers do it), and DPS only has the correct mail, on the correct day, in the correct order (we know it has incorrect mail -3M's, checks dated for next day or later, and sweeping errors - handful missplaced in the tray or dropped and then just stuffed in somewhere). So all those mistakes come out of DPS and get counted again and treated as raw mail.
Our customers expect us to be perfect, they many times don't realize what we do in a day. I had a customer all over me for a misdelivered package by a sub. The customer said "You have what, about 35 customers and you can't get it figured out where to deliver the package." To which I stated that I have 500 addresses averaging 4 people per address so that is 2000 customers and about every one get mail every day and about 100 get packages everyday but to different addresses each day. To which he said with sincerity "So sorry, I can't imagine anyone do all that in 1 day, every day, I'm glad it is you and not me." He is now very appreciative to get the correct mail and packages. Totally changed his attitude towards us carriers.
...Ten fingers, ONE day...don't miss the truck...don't make a mistake...
 

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Lady Carrier

Well-known member
Is the credit for random letter greater than our' sorting' credit?....I don't think so
Actually it is. Credit last count = .0555, 18 letters per min. RRECS credit = .0647, 15 letters per min.
The down side is those trays of WSS (walk sequence sorted) letters in route order that do not get run in DPS are credited different under RRECS credit for those are .0364, 27 letters per min. to case them.
 

Deer smearer

Well-known member
Actually it is. Credit last count = .0555, 18 letters per min. RRECS credit = .0647, 15 letters per min.
The down side is those trays of WSS (walk sequence sorted) letters in route order that do not get run in DPS are credited different under RRECS credit for those are .0364, 27 letters per min. to case them.
The difference there is they run the WSS in the dps during count and loose later.

Now WSS would count more often.
 

hockey94

Well-known member
AND we have to verify the NAMES...
Where does it say that you have to verify names ? If you deliver mail to 12 main st and all the letters have 12 main st on it, you are delivering mail correctly. However, you will get grief from some ppl for obvious reasons.
 

hockey94

Well-known member
I didnt say that, however, with subs being constantly thrown on different routes you cannot expect them to bother with utf's etc... With mgt harping on RCA's to get out and deliver, its not going to happen, plus of course the mountain of packages of varying sizes, it is making matters worse.
 

PastOThirty

Well-known member
I didnt say that, however, with subs being constantly thrown on different routes you cannot expect them to bother with utf's etc... With mgt harping on RCA's to get out and deliver, its not going to happen, plus of course the mountain of packages of varying sizes, it is making matters worse.
It is harped that we deliver by address, not name. Forwarding and post-processing of first-attempt-as-addressed mail is a bonus service we provide. There is no service standard for the timeliness of forwards. We try to be as quick as we can, just to keep things moving along, but there is no strict, publicly advertised goal. There are typical or average turnarounds, but no guarantees. Delivery by name according to memory or case label is neither expected or required. Source of truth is the list of valid names in the box. At least that is how they handle the city side, and then slide it on to us. And even then, the names are just an aide to the carrier, and the carrier is afforded both discretion and leeway, as long as they cover their bases (hold it in office for verification, if it looks significant, for example).

For subs that are new to the route, and new in general especially, I insist they deliver by address, and don't worry about names. They are already confounded with enough new things to learn and remember that are actually somewhat important. If they are not correct about delivering mail that should be forwarded, it can be annoying to everyone including regular customer and supervisor, but those mail pieces typically come back with a flag standing at attention, and if they don't, well shucks, the sender and recipient should have communicated about the change of address, when it was really that important.

Experienced, seasoned subs, who do run the route frequently should have a good idea, but I won't ever expect them to be certain, except in the rarest of cases, and know it as well as the regular (some subs do know a route better than their regular, for reasons). For example, the first route I subbed on, was for my small-town, hometown, that I grew up in and my family still lived there. The regular lived nearby, but got the job through a district wide bid just a couple years prior. They knew quite a bit about a few people, but I could run the route in my sleep and if I had any major questions, I could get ahold of the customer or a close relative of theirs for quick and accurate verification.
 

Haychica

Well-known member
Actually it is. Credit last count = .0555, 18 letters per min. RRECS credit = .0647, 15 letters per min.
The down side is those trays of WSS (walk sequence sorted) letters in route order that do not get run in DPS are credited different under RRECS credit for those are .0364, 27 letters per min. to case them.
Oh my you're right...idk WHAT I was thinking?!👍🙌
 

Haychica

Well-known member
Where does it say that you have to verify names ? If you deliver mail to 12 main st and all the letters have 12 main st on it, you are delivering mail correctly. However, you will get grief from some ppl for obvious reasons.
If you deliver to 12 main st and all the mail has different names from people who've lived there before, or moved then...no you're not delivering correctly...otherwise we wouldn't need FOE, UTF, FWD etc....
 

Haychica

Well-known member
It is harped that we deliver by address, not name. Forwarding and post-processing of first-attempt-as-addressed mail is a bonus service we provide. There is no service standard for the timeliness of forwards. We try to be as quick as we can, just to keep things moving along, but there is no strict, publicly advertised goal. There are typical or average turnarounds, but no guarantees. Delivery by name according to memory or case label is neither expected or required. Source of truth is the list of valid names in the box. At least that is how they handle the city side, and then slide it on to us. And even then, the names are just an aide to the carrier, and the carrier is afforded both discretion and leeway, as long as they cover their bases (hold it in office for verification, if it looks significant, for example).

For subs that are new to the route, and new in general especially, I insist they deliver by address, and don't worry about names. They are already confounded with enough new things to learn and remember that are actually somewhat important. If they are not correct about delivering mail that should be forwarded, it can be annoying to everyone including regular customer and supervisor, but those mail pieces typically come back with a flag standing at attention, and if they don't, well shucks, the sender and recipient should have communicated about the change of address, when it was really that important.

Experienced, seasoned subs, who do run the route frequently should have a good idea, but I won't ever expect them to be certain, except in the rarest of cases, and know it as well as the regular (some subs do know a route better than their regular, for reasons). For example, the first route I subbed on, was for my small-town, hometown, that I grew up in and my family still lived there. The regular lived nearby, but got the job through a district wide bid just a couple years prior. They knew quite a bit about a few people, but I could run the route in my sleep and if I had any major questions, I could get ahold of the customer or a close relative of theirs for quick and accurate verification.
If we don't read the names then we don't need fwd, foe, UTF, etc....
 

Haychica

Well-known member
Where does it say that you have to verify names ? If you deliver mail to 12 main st and all the letters have 12 main st on it, you are delivering mail correctly. However, you will get grief from some ppl for obvious reasons.
How do you think you FORWARD mail?...😕
Just bc managemt doesn't hold you accountable, doesn't mean the function doesn't exist.
Not to mention: UTF, foe, ank, etc
To be fair, these functions were fine 50 years ago when a full route was 350 homes and every ONE was named Mr& Mrs Smith...my point being that this basic function has NOT changed to reflect the 1600 names and 670 stops we have now...and no ONE in the study or union is addressing it that I know of...
 

hockey94

Well-known member
If you deliver to 12 main st and all the mail has different names from people who've lived there before, or moved then...no you're not delivering correctly...otherwise we wouldn't need FOE, UTF, FWD etc....
How is someone supposed to know which different names are correct ? Especially, if the carrier rarely delivers that route, in addition, not all names on the cases are updated, even when the labels are changed. The PO is cutting costs all over the place and spending the time to update names is one of them. When subs had maybe a total of 30 packages if that, they probably had extra time to ATTEMPT to verify names. You are WRONG mail is delivered by address, not name !!
 
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