Route Mile Measuring

Orange

Member
Hi y'all. Here's a question: my route is pov. Our post office has both pov and llv. When routes are being meaured for mileage, do you take your pov? Wouldn't there be a variance because llv's have smaller tires than pov's? I need the actual factual answer to this. Does it say anything about this in our contract? Thanks 😊
 

PastOThirty

Well-known member
The speedometer and odometer are calibrated to a a particular tire size, and smaller or bigger tires than calibrated with will throw that calibrated mileage measurement out the window. However as long as the speedometer is calibrated to 20 ft tires or likewise to 6 in tires, the mileage should be accurate. Either a POV or LLV can be used, if they can accurately measure a mile.
 

gerl2

Well-known member
Hi y'all. Here's a question: my route is pov. Our post office has both pov and llv. When routes are being meaured for mileage, do you take your pov? Wouldn't there be a variance because llv's have smaller tires than pov's? I need the actual factual answer to this. Does it say anything about this in our contract? Thanks 😊
I would request a calibrated car they have for accuracy.
 

btdtret

Well-known member
Orange et al -- " When routes are being meaured for mileage, do you take your pov? "

-- One would think that getting the correct mileage would be foremost on manglement's mind, so using the route vehicle would be the way to go.

-- However - comma - safe bet that manglement would use the vehicle most comfortable for them to use while measuring the route, In that case, it would be manglement's air conditioned vehicle over the route's LLV. Unless manglement uses an LLV with a jumb seat installed in the back.

"Wouldn't there be a variance because llv's have smaller tires than pov's."

-- Even LLV's can differ in mileage over the same route. One year manglement used an LLV with a jump seat for route inspection of all the office routes instead of the LLV assigned to each route. The jump seat LLV mileage was 2 miles longer than my route LLV.

-- If manglement insists on using a vehicle different from the route's vehicle, about the only thing you can do is actually compare the tire size of the two vehicles. You can take the time to drive your route with your POV without pulling over to service mail boxes to get a figure you can compare with manglement's measurement. Be sure to comment if there is a large difference, as in a difference in miles.

"Does it say anything about this in our contract? "

-- The contract is the last place to look for such information.

-- Contract - Article 30.1.E -- Route Remeasurement. Rural routes SHALL be remeasured upon request of the rural carrier or when the Employer determines it necessary. The rural carrier assigned to the route has the right to be present in a non-duty status.

-- M-38, Section 621. The post master or deginee will remeasure the rural route using a measuring device TESTED FOR ACCURACY. ( anyone know how manglement tests "calibrated" scanners? ) If an odometer is used, drive the vehile over a known distance to prove the accuracy of the odometer. ( that is assuming the distance used was accurately measured if the first place ) Do not make the measurement with the carrier while serving the route. ( wouldn't want to include those pesky 1/2 mile driveways! ). Start and end the measurement at the authorized loading and unloading area of the route. The road must be traveled by the most direct line practical without pulling in and out to service mail boxes ( or long drive ways ).

-- PO-603, Section 522 Rural Route Inspections - Purpose. The purpose of the inspection is to obtain current and ACCURATE data ( but not accurate mileage )!

-- M-38, Section 443.4 - Completing the 4003. Section d. Enter the EXACT MILEAGE for each line of travel. State the distance in MILES AND TWO DECIMALS. ( good luck with digital odometers which only show the tenths digit )

-- If you have followed other threads regarding route measurements done with the scanner's GPS, your route may lose mileage like many carriers have posted. If manglement tries to request money for "overpayment" for incorrect mileage, contact your Assistant District Representative. And remind manglement it was THEY who did the mileage measurements using their vehicles and devices.
 

jtcrapper

Member
never in a llv never have the miles match up 5 over 6 under and mine cant make up its mind just driving down the highway to get to the route I am doing between 55 and 80 never moving my foot
 

Orange

Member
The speedometer and odometer are calibrated to a a particular tire size, and smaller or bigger tires than calibrated with will throw that calibrated mileage measurement out the window. However as long as the speedometer is calibrated to 20 ft tires or likewise to 6 in tires, the mileage should be accurate. Either a POV or LLV can be used, if they can accurately measure a mile.
Months ago I rode my route with my RHD Jeep Wrangler size 16 tires and got 39 miles. Yesterday I rode my route with size 17 tires and got 37 miles. Does this make sense?
 

Orange

Member
I would request a calibrated car they have for accuracy.
Months ago I rode my route with my RHD Jeep Wrangler size 16 tires and got 39 miles. Yesterday I rode my route with size 17 tires and got 37 miles. Does this make sense?
 

gerl2

Well-known member
Months ago I rode my route with my RHD Jeep Wrangler size 16 tires and got 39 miles. Yesterday I rode my route with size 17 tires and got 37 miles. Does this make sense?
Yes it makes sense but that is why you put in a request to your PM for a special person who will bring out a calibrated vehicle to measure route.
 

Rt2mailman

Well-known member
Side 17 tires have a bigger circumference, hense on the same vehicle they will make a rotation in more of a % of a mile, or more inches/rotation. Your car is calibrated at a certain size tire (written on a sticker on the inside of the drivers door column) to register the correct mileage/speed by measuring the wheel rotation. Smaller wheels = more rotations therefore more miles than actual miles while larger wheels/tires make fewer miles/rotations therefore fewer miles less speed, if not the tire size recommended for your vehicle.
 

gotstamps

Well-known member
Yes it makes sense but that is why you put in a request to your PM for a special person who will bring out a calibrated vehicle to measure route.
Or a vehicle need only be checked against a known mile like a mile marker on a highway. As long as it hits the 1 mile or whatever known measurement you are using to check the vehicle, then that vehicle is considered a calibrated vehicle.
 

Joe Reeser

Well-known member
Or a vehicle need only be checked against a known mile like a mile marker on a highway. As long as it hits the 1 mile or whatever known measurement you are using to check the vehicle, then that vehicle is considered a calibrated vehicle.
Everyone should note that not all mile markers are created equally. The federal government (and probably most states) call these "Reference Location Markers" or "Reference Location Signs." The federal manual (and you knew there was one) governing these signs is the Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (PDF document). Many states have a corresponding manual which has additional information.

If someone is going to use interstate mile markers a couple of things should be known (page 295/296 of above listed manual):
  1. If a reference location sign cannot be installed in the correct location, it may be moved in either direction as
    much as 50 feet. If a reference location sign cannot be placed within 50 feet of the correct location, it should be omitted.
  2. For divided highways, the distance measurement shall be made on the northbound and eastbound
    roadways. The reference location signs for southbound or westbound roadways shall be set at locations
    directly opposite the reference location signs for the northbound or eastbound roadways (and thus may not be accurate - Me).
If I were going to use these markers as a reference for odometer accuracy, I would drive over a ten mile course in the either north- or eastbound directions to at least partially ameliorate any error in placement on any one mile stretch. One could also double check with a GPS device.
 

MiddleOfNowhere

Well-known member
a couple of things come to mind reading though this thread. you can compare tire sizes and the changes it makes to the speedometer/odometer by using a "tire size calculator", that you can find online. i use the miata one, as it will show you number of revolutions a tire makes in a mile, as well as the percent change from original size, and what the speedometer will read, compared to original size.

second, if at all possible, don't use a gps for measurement of distance. it measures accurately from point to point, in a level, straight line. problem being, roads are not perfectly straight and level. i had my route measured about five years ago, using gps. i lost 3 miles. route remeasured in august,(different pm) using a calibrated vehicle, presto, i gained 3 miles. there was no change in route. if i ever lose mileage due to gps measurement, a grievance will be filed immediately. don't think gps can be wrong, think of the distance from a to b, in a 3/4/5 triangle...
 

btdtret

Well-known member
Orange et al -- "Yes it makes sense but that is why you put in a request to your PM for a special person who will bring out a calibrated vehicle to measure route. by "gerl2".

-- If you really want to be the proverbial PITA -- ask whom ever brings out the vehicle for documentation stating the vehicle has a "calibrated" odometer. ( or "calibrated" scanner )

-- If you have ever had to supply manglement with documentation regarding an medical absence - here is your chance to reciprocate!
 

Skierstmoritz

Well-known member
Orange et al -- "Yes it makes sense but that is why you put in a request to your PM for a special person who will bring out a calibrated vehicle to measure route. by "gerl2".

-- If you really want to be the proverbial PITA -- ask whom ever brings out the vehicle for documentation stating the vehicle has a "calibrated" odometer. ( or "calibrated" scanner )

-- If you have ever had to supply manglement with documentation regarding an medical absence - here is your chance to reciprocate!
I've mentioned this before, all towns that have a taxi service are required to have an official measured mile somewhere within town limits to monitor taxi calibration. Take you vehicle out to that measured mile, ck it out, and voila, you have a calibrated instrument.
 

PastOThirty

Well-known member
Yes, and if they delay for any inappropriate reason, and your route' s miles increase, your new mileage starts when you asked for the remeasurement, not when they get around to doing it.
Any reference for that because ops insist that no it’s effective at time of measurement not time of request and my DR has not contradicted that.
 

Rt2mailman

Well-known member
No reference, but management is supposed to conduct a mileage remeasurement upon a carriers request. If they delay with no appropriate reason the requesting carrier should grieve for any differences in pay. The form 50 may not get changed until the actual re-measurement, but any difference in $ owed should be won through the grievance process from the date management could have reasonably conducted the re-measurement
 

Orange

Member
Orange et al -- " When routes are being meaured for mileage, do you take your pov? "

-- One would think that getting the correct mileage would be foremost on manglement's mind, so using the route vehicle would be the way to go.

-- However - comma - safe bet that manglement would use the vehicle most comfortable for them to use while measuring the route, In that case, it would be manglement's air conditioned vehicle over the route's LLV. Unless manglement uses an LLV with a jumb seat installed in the back.

"Wouldn't there be a variance because llv's have smaller tires than pov's."

-- Even LLV's can differ in mileage over the same route. One year manglement used an LLV with a jump seat for route inspection of all the office routes instead of the LLV assigned to each route. The jump seat LLV mileage was 2 miles longer than my route LLV.

-- If manglement insists on using a vehicle different from the route's vehicle, about the only thing you can do is actually compare the tire size of the two vehicles. You can take the time to drive your route with your POV without pulling over to service mail boxes to get a figure you can compare with manglement's measurement. Be sure to comment if there is a large difference, as in a difference in miles.

"Does it say anything about this in our contract? "

-- The contract is the last place to look for such information.

-- Contract - Article 30.1.E -- Route Remeasurement. Rural routes SHALL be remeasured upon request of the rural carrier or when the Employer determines it necessary. The rural carrier assigned to the route has the right to be present in a non-duty status.

-- M-38, Section 621. The post master or deginee will remeasure the rural route using a measuring device TESTED FOR ACCURACY. ( anyone know how manglement tests "calibrated" scanners? ) If an odometer is used, drive the vehile over a known distance to prove the accuracy of the odometer. ( that is assuming the distance used was accurately measured if the first place ) Do not make the measurement with the carrier while serving the route. ( wouldn't want to include those pesky 1/2 mile driveways! ). Start and end the measurement at the authorized loading and unloading area of the route. The road must be traveled by the most direct line practical without pulling in and out to service mail boxes ( or long drive ways ).

-- PO-603, Section 522 Rural Route Inspections - Purpose. The purpose of the inspection is to obtain current and ACCURATE data ( but not accurate mileage )!

-- M-38, Section 443.4 - Completing the 4003. Section d. Enter the EXACT MILEAGE for each line of travel. State the distance in MILES AND TWO DECIMALS. ( good luck with digital odometers which only show the tenths digit )

-- If you have followed other threads regarding route measurements done with the scanner's GPS, your route may lose mileage like many carriers have posted. If manglement tries to request money for "overpayment" for incorrect mileage, contact your Assistant District Representative. And remind manglement it was THEY who did the mileage measurements using their vehicles and devices.
Hi. I'm having a hard time find M-38 section 621anywhere. Can you help me find what page it's on? Regarding management having to provide a calibrated measuring tool?
 

Oi veh.

Moderator
Staff member
Hi. I'm having a hard time find M-38 section 621anywhere. Can you help me find what page it's on? Regarding management having to provide a calibrated measuring tool?
Are you a union member?

Go to the website, steward relations, USPS handbooks and manuals.

If not, go to knowledgebase of this site, put M-38 in search bar and download.

621 MEASUREMENT AND REMEASUREMENT
The postmaster or designee will remeasure the rural route using a measuring device tested for accuracy. If an odometer is used drive the vehicle over a known distance to prove the accuracy of the odometer. Do not make the measurement with the carrier while serving the route. Start and end the measurement at the authorized loading and unloading area of the route. The roads must be traveled by the most direct line practical without pulling in and out to service mailboxes.

622 LENGTH OF ROUTE IS UNCHANGED
If it is determined thal the route's length before and after remeasurement is the same, place a memorandum in the route folder indicating the date of the measurement. the method used. and the finding.

623 LENGTH OF ROUTE IS CHANGED
If the correct length is longer or shorter and there is no dispute, complete Form 4003, Official Rural Route Description (covering the remeasurement) and a memorandum documenting the date of the remeasurement and the method used.

624 LENGTH OF ROUTE IN DISPUTE
If the length of the route is in dispute. complete Form 4003. and memorandum as outlined in Part 623. Include in the memorandum an outline of the nature of the dispute.

626 ACTION TO· CORRECT ROUTE LENGTH
626.1 Effective Date
When the correct length has been determined. whether longer or shorter. establish the effective date on Form 4030 at the beginning of the next pay period. Process Form 4003 as outlined in Chapter 4. Extensions of Rural Routes.
 
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