• Everyone, please help make our jobs easier and choose the correct category. Thank you

working off the clock

If mgmt is “forcing“ carriers to work off the clock, that is a grievance. BUT if Carriers do it on their own, there is no grievance. You cannot file against another carrier, only against mgmt.
No.

It doesn't matter if a carrier does it on their own or are directed to work off the clock. "Disallowed workhours" are still workhours. It's a grievance on management's failure either way.

Scroll down to ELM 432.71, Control.

Supervisors should ensure that employees do not remain on the clock unless they are specifically authorized to do so. Where employees continue to work contrary to instructions from a supervisor to clock out, the corrective action must be a procedure other than not compensating the employees for work performed.

Management's failure to control workhours is at least an MOU 14 violation.

In addition, the DOLs FLSA Hours Worked Advisor states:

It is the duty of management to exercise control and see that work is not performed if the employer does not want it to be performed. An employer cannot sit back and accept the benefits of an employee’s work without considering the time spent to be hours worked. Merely making a rule against such work is not enough. The employer has the power to enforce the rule and must make every effort to do so. Employees generally may not volunteer to perform work without the employer having to count the time as hours worked.

"The employee volunteered" is not a viable excuse. A "volunteer to work" is not a "volunteer to not be compensated".

In the case that it were, management compounds the issue by bypassing the union or "direct dealing" with a member of the bargaining unit instead of the union, and ultimately agreeing to consider those hours as:

1) non-recordable workhours, AND;
2) non-compensable workhours

That would be another violation in itself.
 
No.

It doesn't matter if a carrier does it on their own or are directed to work off the clock. "Disallowed workhours" are still workhours. It's a grievance on management's failure either way.

Scroll down to ELM 432.71, Control.

Supervisors should ensure that employees do not remain on the clock unless they are specifically authorized to do so. Where employees continue to work contrary to instructions from a supervisor to clock out, the corrective action must be a procedure other than not compensating the employees for work performed.

Management's failure to control workhours is at least an MOU 14 violation.

In addition, the DOLs FLSA Hours Worked Advisor states:

It is the duty of management to exercise control and see that work is not performed if the employer does not want it to be performed. An employer cannot sit back and accept the benefits of an employee’s work without considering the time spent to be hours worked. Merely making a rule against such work is not enough. The employer has the power to enforce the rule and must make every effort to do so. Employees generally may not volunteer to perform work without the employer having to count the time as hours worked.

"The employee volunteered" is not a viable excuse. A "volunteer to work" is not a "volunteer to not be compensated".

In the case that it were, management compounds the issue by bypassing the union or "direct dealing" with a member of the bargaining unit instead of the union, and ultimately agreeing to consider those hours as:

1) non-recordable workhours, AND;
2) non-compensable workhours

That would be another violation in itself.
Yes, but to PROVE mgmt is allowing it or has knowledge of it happening is difficult. A Carrier cannot file a grievance unless they are directly being harmed. If a carrier is being forced to work off the clock, then they have a grievance as they are being harmed. A grievance of this nature would give a Local Rep cause to Q & A carriers & mgmt and also give them cause to record the times that Carriers ACTUALLY start work.

Without just cause, the Local looks to be ”fishing” for work. The best a Rep would get is a Cease & Desist until it happens again. Then the local would be ”policing” mgmt which is not the Union’s job.
Carriers don’t care about “working off the clock” until it hits their pocketbook.
 
Yes, but to PROVE mgmt is allowing it or has knowledge of it happening is difficult. A Carrier cannot file a grievance unless they are directly being harmed. If a carrier is being forced to work off the clock, then they have a grievance as they are being harmed. A grievance of this nature would give a Local Rep cause to Q & A carriers & mgmt and also give them cause to record the times that Carriers ACTUALLY start work.
The direct harm lies in the effect the unrecorded time has on negotiations, specifically, the "bump" referenced in the NRLCAs Statement on Working Off the Clock.

Additional harm is fraudulent recoding of work hours (DOL violation), wage theft (DOL violation), management's non-compliance of MOU 14 (Agreement violation)... There's also risking suit from an employee injury by an employee "not on the clock".

I could go on.

A steward has specific right to investigate prior a grievance being filed in Article 17.3.
.

Screenshot_2021-04-11-09-47-42-1.png

...and again in Article 31.2
Screenshot_2021-04-11-09-51-09-1.png

"Cause" to investigate is nothing more than a suspicion of a rule being violated.

So often, a manager squawking "fishing expedition" spooks stewards from enforcing the agreement. I don't know why, but it does.

If a steward gets wind by written word, spoken word, or by action, there is your door to determine "whether or not to" respond.

The suspicion is provided to the local steward through the NRLCAs Statement on Working Off the Clock writing.

In many cases, a settlement allowing the rep to come in before the carrier's scheduled start time to ensure its not happening is a basic fix.

Without just cause, the Local looks to be ”fishing” for work. The best a Rep would get is a Cease & Desist until it happens again. Then the local would be ”policing” mgmt which is not the Union’s job.
"Just cause" applies to discipline. If you meant "reasonable suspicion", as mentioned, the "suspicion" is generated by the NRLCA writing.

The best evidence to confirm or deny the "working off-the-clock" claim is video footage, which is unlikely going to happen.

Next best is eyewitness, however:

1) Management could falsely claim a carrier worked off-the-clock.
2) Carrier could falsely claim they did not work off the clock.

Off the top, for the best (available) evidence, a rep would have to monitor the floor for the violation, then immediately challenge management once a carrier was working off-the-clock, asking management:

1) what is the current time?
2) will you require the employee to accurately record the time they started working?
3) should the time the employee records they started working be no later than the current time?
4) should management enter the time that employee started work to its corresponding representation in RTACS?

Put management on written notice before it happens so you don't have to waste time with a lame duck C&D.

How?

Settlement at the informal stage of the grievance procedure, disputing "whether or not management is obligated to control workhours".

The answer is obviously yes. They'll sign off on it and, BAM, there's your "non-compliance" argument support AND gateway to ensure compliance of that grievance settlement via monitoring the floor.

"Policing management" is not the union's job, but policing the contract is.

If management is failing to perform, the steward can use the contract to straighten the ship.
Carriers don’t care about “working off the clock” until it hits their pocketbook.
Yeah... Yet there are also some that don't care even after it hits their pocketbook.
 
Gotstamps -- "Yes, but to PROVE mgmt is allowing it [ working off the clock ] or has knowledge of it happening is difficult."

-- One could hope an ADR just happened to be in the office early, on other business, and notice rural carriers hard at work. The ADR might stop by to see how the carriers were doing ( and to look at the 4240 to note report times ).

-- Unlike the city steward, an office steward can not initiate a grievance ( unless it is a class action, right? )
 
If working off the clock is illegal why is the post office allowing this . Can we sue the post office and manager to get back pay and put a stop to this ? I would think a class action suit nationwide should take care of that .This has been going on for years . the new people think its ok to come in when the want . Our manager endorses this . I wrote a letter to our congressman about this last year, that stopped it for about a week. we have people coming in as early as 3 AM sometimes. They are delivering packages before sun up . Some body might get mistaken as burglar and get shot. I have told the manager about this . He just walked away . The union was notified about this and has done nothing. When contacted the union se just said " Oh I know your manager , we used to work together . He is my friend . " She the sad she was going to do nothing ! WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON ?
We also get people that are driving on the wrong side of the road because the don't have a converted vehicle . I checked with the state patrol about this . They said nobody can drive on the wrong side of the road. It is 100% illegal for everyone. Yes you guessed it , the manager knows about and has done nothing.
How can we put a stop to this ?
The "union" says they're good buds with management? Me, I'd keep going up the union ladder until I found someone who would take action. This should be so simple. Log the time you actually work. I've managed exempt and non exempt employees in the private sector, and only managers who are salaried, who's work is differently defined than our rural evaluated system, are legally allowed to work "on" or "off" the clock. Those definitions are specified by the Department of Labor, for the protection of workers everywhere.
 
Yes, but to PROVE mgmt is allowing it or has knowledge of it happening is difficult. A Carrier cannot file a grievance unless they are directly being harmed. If a carrier is being forced to work off the clock, then they have a grievance as they are being harmed. A grievance of this nature would give a Local Rep cause to Q & A carriers & mgmt and also give them cause to record the times that Carriers ACTUALLY start work.

Without just cause, the Local looks to be ”fishing” for work. The best a Rep would get is a Cease & Desist until it happens again. Then the local would be ”policing” mgmt which is not the Union’s job.
Carriers don’t care about “working off the clock” until it hits their pocketbook.
Documentation. If the carrier can't obtain official 4240 then keep a log on their own. The carrier IS being harmed as they're being denied compensation for work performed. We can't allow intimidation to the extent where the union only believes management's lies, and the carrier is not truthful.
 
Documentation. If the carrier can't obtain official 4240 then keep a log on their own. The carrier IS being harmed as they're being denied compensation for work performed. We can't allow intimidation to the extent where the union only believes management's lies, and the carrier is not truthful.
What you state is if a Carrier is being forced to work off the clock. This is a grievance.

My office & many others have the opposite issue; Carriers not clocking in or out with the correct times. Problem is is that mgmt tends to look the other way when Carriers CHOOSE to work off the clock. In large offices, it can be difficult to monitor who is doing what. There are 3 points of entry in my office so unless mgmt just happens to see you come in, they don’t have a clue. AND even though a Supervisor in the AM (there‘s sometimes 4) might be aware of a Carrier’s time, it’s the PM Supervisor that inputs the 4240 entries & he/she is clueless & too busy checking Carrier scans to know if any of the entries are correct.
 
What you state is if a Carrier is being forced to work off the clock. This is a grievance.

My office & many others have the opposite issue; Carriers not clocking in or out with the correct times. Problem is is that mgmt tends to look the other way when Carriers CHOOSE to work off the clock. In large offices, it can be difficult to monitor who is doing what. There are 3 points of entry in my office so unless mgmt just happens to see you come in, they don’t have a clue. AND even though a Supervisor in the AM (there‘s sometimes 4) might be aware of a Carrier’s time, it’s the PM Supervisor that inputs the 4240 entries & he/she is clueless & too busy checking Carrier scans to know if any of the entries are correct.
Ahh yes, I see now. I've worked in large offices (150+ carriers) and it's easy to get "lost" in all the stuff going on. The timekeepers hardly ever notice anything, even if they're there, they just record off the 4240.

Our standards set forth for casing and delivery are relatively easy for an average carrier to accomplish. Gosh, carriers should just put down their real times, they're covered if they make the standards. For those offices who have carriers who are working routes that are severely over evaluation because of volume (parcels) the union SHOULD step up for them???? I've always thought that if I was making the standards set forth by the postal service I was protected (those standards were inputted through evaluations). Because volume is in excess of evaluation is no excuse to force a carrier to work faster than the standards. Our offices' carriers are typically modestly over evaluation, and they record it as such. We don't have the horror of Amazon any more (though we did, so we know what it's like) but even then we worked what it took and recorded the time. If management didn't like it, it was up to them to find someone to assist. Maybe if actual times were recorded, management would be a bit more excited about finding some help? I guess I'm in idealistic dream world of fairness. Honesty has always been foremost for me. Direct opposition from most management.
 
People in my office do this and I just don't get it. They come in 20-30 mins early but "clock in" on the scanner exactly at their start time.

My postmaster doesn't care as long as you don't clock in or write down that you started early since it makes his life easier because it helps carriers be under 2080 issues. He can also claim he doesn't know it's going on since he usually doesn't arrive for an hour or so after we start.

Things like this kill the rural craft because on paper it looks like routes are taking ~3 hours a week less than they actually do.
 
People in my office do this and I just don't get it. They come in 20-30 mins early but "clock in" on the scanner exactly at their start time.

My postmaster doesn't care as long as you don't clock in or write down that you started early since it makes his life easier because it helps carriers be under 2080 issues. He can also claim he doesn't know it's going on since he usually doesn't arrive for an hour or so after we start.

Things like this kill the rural craft because on paper it looks like routes are taking ~3 hours a week less than they actually do.
Our offices aren't rigid on start times. Some come in "early" but they log the time they start work, even if prior to official start time. To me, the key is recording the actual hours you work. 2080 is a MANAGEMENT problem. They don't' want a carrier to exceed it? Find them assistance or relief so they can take time off at their discretion.
 
Our offices aren't rigid on start times. Some come in "early" but they log the time they start work, even if prior to official start time. To me, the key is recording the actual hours you work. 2080 is a MANAGEMENT problem. They don't' want a carrier to exceed it? Find them assistance or relief so they can take time off at their discretion.
you're making sure that the times transferred off the 4240 are correct and not just fixed later? to keep district from bitching?
 
Our offices aren't rigid on start times. Some come in "early" but they log the time they start work, even if prior to official start time. To me, the key is recording the actual hours you work. 2080 is a MANAGEMENT problem. They don't' want a carrier to exceed it? Find them assistance or relief so they can take time off at their discretion.
Officially we are not allowed to start early without specific permission from district and we get in trouble if we write down or clock in before our start time. (even 1 or 2 mins early) So the only way these carriers can start early is to lie about when they started.

Typically if I get to work early I will hang out in my car and not go in until 5 minutes before my start time.
 
We also get people that are driving on the wrong side of the road because they don't have a converted vehicle . I checked with the state patrol about this . They said nobody can drive on the wrong side of the road. It is 100% illegal for everyone. Yes you guessed it , the manager knows about and has done nothing.
How can we put a stop to this ?
Does state patrol bust the newspaper man?
 
No.

It doesn't matter if a carrier does it on their own or are directed to work off the clock. "Disallowed workhours" are still workhours. It's a grievance on management's failure either way.

Scroll down to ELM 432.71, Control.

Supervisors should ensure that employees do not remain on the clock unless they are specifically authorized to do so. Where employees continue to work contrary to instructions from a supervisor to clock out, the corrective action must be a procedure other than not compensating the employees for work performed.

Management's failure to control workhours is at least an MOU 14 violation.

In addition, the DOLs FLSA Hours Worked Advisor states:

It is the duty of management to exercise control and see that work is not performed if the employer does not want it to be performed. An employer cannot sit back and accept the benefits of an employee’s work without considering the time spent to be hours worked. Merely making a rule against such work is not enough. The employer has the power to enforce the rule and must make every effort to do so. Employees generally may not volunteer to perform work without the employer having to count the time as hours worked.

"The employee volunteered" is not a viable excuse. A "volunteer to work" is not a "volunteer to not be compensated".

In the case that it were, management compounds the issue by bypassing the union or "direct dealing" with a member of the bargaining unit instead of the union, and ultimately agreeing to consider those hours as:

1) non-recordable workhours, AND;
2) non-compensable workhours

That would be another violation in itself.
I always get a kick out of the hypocrisy of coming in early is "off the clock" but if you go 3 hours over evaluation you are still "on the clock". Wake up.
 
Does state patrol bust the newspaper man?
Of course it's ILLEGAL but law enforcement gives us accommodation. U turns are illegal as well. I've personally asked state patrol and city police and they've indicated that's correct.

Obviously, if the driver makes a careless action and places others in potential harm, they're going to be spoken to or cited.
 
you're making sure that the times transferred off the 4240 are correct and not just fixed later? to keep district from bitching?
They're correct in rural timekeeping. I see the printouts after submission that are filed. Some districts are focused on this and some focus on other stupid stuff. Our district, for example, has dictated that we are no longer allowed to make U turns, even if they're in the 4003 line of travel.
 
Of course it's ILLEGAL but law enforcement gives us accommodation. U turns are illegal as well. I've personally asked state patrol and city police and they've indicated that's correct.

Obviously, if the driver makes a careless action and places others in potential harm, they're going to be spoken to or cited.

A state trooper gave me a ticket a few years ago when I rolled through a stop sign out in the boonies ! My record which of course he checked had been clean for 25 plus years !

I ended up with an equipment violation, cost about $250. I missed 2 days of work for court which was GREAT !
 
I always get a kick out of the hypocrisy of coming in early is "off the clock" but if you go 3 hours over evaluation you are still "on the clock". Wake up.
coming in 3 hours over evaluation is only working off the clock if you falsify the time on the 4240... are u in 2080 trouble? i doubt it.. so my co worker who loves her code 5's writes down a lunch everyday, she says throughout her 9 hour days she wastes time to equal 30 minutes somewhere, i say bullsh++, she sure acts like she wants to go home... her rca when covering for a week writes down 30 minutes lunch every day because she wants evaluated and not hourly, and moves so fast i fear for her life.... why is this a heated discussion currently? because our contract is expiring and the post office is going to use this info to cut our evaluation and pay if at all possible
 
Back
Top