Is the 3 day rule for 3971 calendar days or work days?

dunshine · Thursday at 5:03 PM

Hey yall, I requested some time off on 11/8/25 for 11-28 > 11-30 they returned my 3971 back to me on 11-12-25 which would be 5 calendar days after i notified a supervisor of my slip, i have it dated.

In the contract it states:

Failure to return a request for leave within three (3) days of receipt will result in the request being automatically approved, provided the rural carrier has obtained proper acknowledgment of the leave request submission.

However my management is trying to say that sundays and holidays don’t count? I did not work Sunday but I did work Tuesday on Veterans day, with a scheduled supervisor and still didn’t receive it then. They’re trying to tell me that my days off are still not approved.

They also didn’t date next to their signature when they disapproved it either. I think they may be getting the 3 work days confused with management contract. Just wondering if I end up not showing up for those days if i would end up in trouble or not.

Shannonboy · Friday at 11:19 AM

Uuuhhhh.....yeah...you'll get in trouble. Show up. Work what's scheduled, and file a grievance, let union rep hash it out. Then be ready next time to bust pm's balls when they act STUPID again....and they will. Trust me...and then teach them a lesson. Even morons figure it out after a while...most po mgmt is notoriously MORONIC though....

Voglio-il mio · Friday at 4:09 PM

When submitting a 3971 there should be three copies!

One is used to acknowledge receipt of the 3971 by Postmaster and returned immediately to the carrier on the date of request.

The second copy is returned to the Carrier within 3 days indicating whether it was approved or not.

The third copy is retained by the Postmaster for record keeping a scheduling purposes.

Caution if you are not doing step #1 the clock doesn't start until its looked at by the Postmaster (this would be the argument by the PM) So complete step #1 to start the clock.

dunshine · Friday at 4:20 PM

Voglio-il mio said:
When submitting a 3971 there should be three copies!

One is used to acknowledge receipt of the 3971 by Postmaster and returned immediately to the carrier on the date of request.

The second copy is returned to the Carrier within 3 days indicating whether it was approved or not.

The third copy is retained by the Postmaster for record keeping a scheduling purposes.

Caution if you are not doing step #1 the clock doesn't start until its looked at by the Postmaster (this would be the argument by the PM) So complete step #1 to start the clock.

Step 1 was completed, the three days happened over sunday and veterans day which is more what my question is geared towards. they’re saying they have a local agreement where sunday’s and holidays don’t count toward the 3 days basically.

Shannonboy · Friday at 4:25 PM

dunshine said:
Step 1 was completed, the three days happened over sunday and veterans day which is more what my question is geared towards. they’re saying they have a local agreement where sunday’s and holidays don’t count toward the 3 days basically.

Hhhmmmmm....yeah.....that could be a problem....

Voglio-il mio · Friday at 4:34 PM

dunshine said:
Step 1 was completed, the three days happened over sunday and veterans day which is more what my question is geared towards. they’re saying they have a local agreement where sunday’s and holidays don’t count toward the 3 days basically.

Check with steward to see if there is a local agreement. As far as I'm concerned local agreements should never happen for this reason. Its either by the contract or nothing if you give an inch you set yourself up for prior practices abuse!

dunshine · Friday at 4:41 PM

Voglio-il mio said:
Check with steward to see if there is a local agreement. As far as I'm concerned local agreements should never happen for this reason. Its either by the contract or nothing if you give an inch you set yourself up for prior practices abuse!

The steward sent an email clarifying but it contradicted itself twice, it’s honestly very confusing. I just want the days off. they got it back to me on the 5th day, or based off scheduled days the 4th day. but if it’s excluding sundays and holidays then it’s the 3rd day. this “local agreement” is not very clear at all.

btdtret · Friday at 7:22 PM

dunshine -- [ Leave approval ]

-- Show manglement page 48 of the current National Agreement, which you already have.

- 7.B. Failure to return a request for leave within three ( 3 ) days of receipt will result in the request being automatically approved, provided the rural carrier has obtained proper acknowledgement of the leave request submission.

-- Next time, hound manglement to sign and return your 3971 when you hand the request to them. Don't leave their side until you get a signed copy. After all - it is just an acknowledgement that manglement has received your request. Period.

-- You could high light "within three ( 3 ) days" and point out there is no mention of holidays, relief days, weekends, or the like. Just "3 days".

-- If manglement has something else in print, politely ask they provide it.

-- If manglement does provide something, just say "Sorry, but that is not part of the USPS-NRLCA National Agreement, which was hammered out by personnel way above your pay grade." Or words to that effect.

-- Ask the steward where the information was found. ( certainly not the National Agreement, I bet )

-- If in fact the steward's email is factual, start a write-in campaign to have it included in the next National Agreement!

-- Good luck.

gotstamps · Friday at 9:04 PM

There are NO local agreements in the Rural Craft. That’s a Sweetheart Deal & is not allowed.

For more information on the definitive agreement on the 3-Day rule, tell mgmt to check the RCAM that is provided to them from the USPS.
The RCAM has further information for a majority of the agreed upon Articles in our National Agreement.
ALWAYS have a Supervisor sign the 3971 as accepted by UNLESS you send via eLRA in Liteblue. Mgmt is only required to return a Denial within 3 days. If Day 3 is on a Sunday, Holiday, or Relief Day then mgmt must return the Denied Slip first thing on the next working day. The day you submit is Day 0 since mgmt is expected to hold all submissions until End Of Day before determining approvals by Seniority.

dunshine · Friday at 9:12 PM

gotstamps said:
There are NO local agreements in the Rural Craft. That’s a Sweetheart Deal & is not allowed.

For more information on the definitive agreement on the 3-Day rule, tell mgmt to check the RCAM that is provided to them from the USPS.
The RCAM has further information for a majority of the agreed upon Articles in our National Agreement.
ALWAYS have a Supervisor sign the 3971 as accepted by UNLESS you send via eLRA in Liteblue. Mgmt is only required to return a Denial within 3 days. If Day 3 is on a Sunday, Holiday, or Relief Day then mgmt must return the Denied Slip first thing on the next working day. The day you submit is Day 0 since mgmt is expected to hold all submissions until End Of Day before determining approvals by Seniority.

Really? My local steward is claiming it’s an ARCAM which he described to be an addendum to the contract, and they’re upholding it. I filed a grievance for denying my leave when we have leave replacement available, but should i file another one for them using an ARCAM/LMOU?? I feel like i’ve never heard of this before until now.

psd181 · 2025-11-15T04:54:47-0600

dunshine said:
Step 1 was completed, the three days happened over sunday and veterans day which is more what my question is geared towards. they’re saying they have a local agreement where sunday’s and holidays don’t count toward the 3 days basically.

There is not any local agreements for the NRLCA. If there is, then it's a contractual violation and DR needs to be notified to stop it.

stillfirstclass · 2025-11-15T05:44:47-0600

dunshine said:
Really? My local steward is claiming it’s an ARCAM which he described to be an addendum to the contract, and they’re upholding it. I filed a grievance for denying my leave when we have leave replacement available, but should i file another one for them using an ARCAM/LMOU?? I feel like i’ve never heard of this before until now.

make sure the stay at home rca files for not getting the work as well

gotstamps · 2025-11-15T06:42:55-0600

There are no “addendums” that are in the RCAM. The RCAM defines the Contract & the agreed upon meaning of each Article. Any MOUs in the RCAM are in the Contract. LOUs are further defining documents that help to define what both the USPS and the Union agree to.
File your grievance and send it to your DR as well as your Local Steward.

oi veh. · 2025-11-15T06:58:28-0600

and in the future, only use eLRA.

print out and save to attach to your 4240.

dunshine · 2025-11-15T08:11:32-0600

gotstamps said:
There are no “addendums” that are in the RCAM. The RCAM defines the Contract & the agreed upon meaning of each Article. Any MOUs in the RCAM are in the Contract. LOUs are further defining documents that help to define what both the USPS and the Union agree to.
File your grievance and send it to your DR as well as your Local Steward.

Okay so to correct myself, this screenshot is from the rural q&a, not an addendum. But to my understanding, as long as i am scheduled on that 3rd day, even if its a holiday (veterans day) that was still the deadline for managment to return the 3971 to me right? 11/8 i turned it in, and received it back signed and dated by managment for 11/8, then 11/9 (Sunday, unscheduled) 11/10 (monday, scheduled) 11/11 (Tuesday, Veterans day, scheduled) and then 11/12 (Wednesday, scheduled) was when it was finally returned to me. Because i was scheduled on that holiday, shouldn’t it have been returned to me then? on that 3rd day?

EthelAnne · 2025-11-15T09:32:05-0600

dunshine said:
Really? My local steward is claiming it’s an ARCAM which he described to be an addendum to the contract, and they’re upholding it. I filed a grievance for denying my leave when we have leave replacement available, but should i file another one for them using an ARCAM/LMOU?? I feel like i’ve never heard of this before until now.

RCAM, not ARCAM. It is not part of the contract, but it is an interpretation of the contract that has been agreed to by the NRLCA and the USPS. This is what the RCAM (in italics) says about Leave Submission (Article 10.7.B in bold).
____________________________________________________________________________________
B. Failure to return a request for leave within three (3) days of receipt will result in the request being automatically approved, provided the rural carrier has obtained a proper acknowledgement of the leave request submission.

PS Form 3971 must be received by management and the PS Form 3971 indicating approval or disapproval must be received by the carrier. The parties did not intend this to be a gotcha or game playing.

For all annual leave requests made on the same day will be reviewed at the end of the day with seniority being the determining factor. Requests for leave received after close of business (5:00pm local time) will be considered with requests received the following day.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

I would contact my NRLCA District Representative to get clarification whenever I doubt my local steward. Who is the "they" that is "upholding it" (the denial)? Is it the local steward? Leave can almost never be denied as long as a leave replacement is available so what is the reason why the local steward is telling you? Did you actually file a grievance, or just speak to your local steward about the issue?

ETA: Others have already said this, but just to make sure that point is understood, I'll add my voice to the chorus: We do not have local agreements in the rural union. If your local steward is telling you they have a local agreement (LMOU) you need to tell the NRLCA District Representative this as well.

dunshine · 2025-11-15T10:16:29-0600

EthelAnne said:
RCAM, not ARCAM. It is not part of the contract, but it is an interpretation of the contract that has been agreed to by the NRLCA and the USPS. This is what the RCAM (in italics) says about Leave Submission (Article 10.7.B in bold).
____________________________________________________________________________________
B. Failure to return a request for leave within three (3) days of receipt will result in the request being automatically approved, provided the rural carrier has obtained a proper acknowledgement of the leave request submission.

PS Form 3971 must be received by management and the PS Form 3971 indicating approval or disapproval must be received by the carrier. The parties did not intend this to be a gotcha or game playing.

For all annual leave requests made on the same day will be reviewed at the end of the day with seniority being the determining factor. Requests for leave received after close of business (5:00pm local time) will be considered with requests received the following day.

_______________________________________________________________________________________

I would contact my NRLCA District Representative to get clarification whenever I doubt my local steward. Who is the "they" that is "upholding it" (the denial)? Is it the local steward? Leave can almost never be denied as long as a leave replacement is available so what is the reason why the local steward is telling you? Did you actually file a grievance, or just speak to your local steward about the issue?

ETA: Others have already said this, but just to make sure that point is understood, I'll add my voice to the chorus: We do not have local agreements in the rural union. If your local steward is telling you they have a local agreement (LMOU) you need to tell the NRLCA District Representative this as well.

They is managment, my local steward is still trying to “find out” whether or not the 3rd day would’ve been on the holiday i was scheduled or not. And my district steward is not giving a clear answer, and when i try to ask he redirects me to my local and then sent the RCAM. If they still refuse to give me the days off because of the 3 day notice do I just file a new grievance and then take the days anyway? I originally filed a grievance for us having the leave replacement available but them still denying. We had 4 people off with 8 rcas

EthelAnne · 2025-11-15T11:30:24-0600

dunshine said:
They is managment, my local steward is still trying to “find out” whether or not the 3rd day would’ve been on the holiday i was scheduled or not. And my district steward is not giving a clear answer, and when i try to ask he redirects me to my local and then sent the RCAM. If they still refuse to give me the days off because of the 3 day notice do I just file a new grievance and then take the days anyway? I originally filed a grievance for us having the leave replacement available but them still denying. We had 4 people off with 8 rcas

So, to be clear, you have already filed a grievance which the local steward argued on your behalf and management denied the grievance?

If that’s the case, your local steward should appeal the decision to Step 2 (the district) where the NRLCA District Representative and the USPS Labor Relations representative will make a decision on the appeal.

Just an FYI, if a local steward is present in an office, the NRLCA District Representative will almost always refer questions/concerns back to the local steward, as they have been elected to represent the office. Behind the scenes, the local rep and DR should be communicating about the issue. You should make sure the local steward has filed the appeal as they only have 10 days after the Step 1 decision to do so.

dunshine · 2025-11-15T16:21:50-0600

EthelAnne said:
So, to be clear, you have already filed a grievance which the local steward argued on your behalf and management denied the grievance?

If that’s the case, your local steward should appeal the decision to Step 2 (the district) where the NRLCA District Representative and the USPS Labor Relations representative will make a decision on the appeal.

Just an FYI, if a local steward is present in an office, the NRLCA District Representative will almost always refer questions/concerns back to the local steward, as they have been elected to represent the office. Behind the scenes, the local rep and DR should be communicating about the issue. You should make sure the local steward has filed the appeal as they only have 10 days after the Step 1 decision to do so

He’s not denied it yet, he’s still unsure about the 3rd day even though it seems clear as day. I’m running on a time crunch though, seems like i’m not going to get the days off now regardless by the time it’s settled. he needs to just go tell managment that I didn’t receive my 3971 back on the 3rd day i was scheduled and be done with it. Then managment can decide if they want to still fight it or not, i’m very close to just not showing up that date and fighting the discipline after.

EthelAnne · 2025-11-16T06:26:25-0600

dunshine said:
He’s not denied it yet, he’s still unsure about the 3rd day even though it seems clear as day. I’m running on a time crunch though, seems like i’m not going to get the days off now regardless by the time it’s settled. he needs to just go tell managment that I didn’t receive my 3971 back on the 3rd day i was scheduled and be done with it. Then managment can decide if they want to still fight it or not, i’m very close to just not showing up that date and fighting the discipline after.

Well, FWIW, I agree it's not clear as day. I encourage you to look closely at the RCAM interpretation: "The parties did not intend this to be a gotcha or game playing." You submitted a leave request on 11/8 (Saturday). Management is required to wait until COB (close of business) to make sure all leave requests have been submitted for the day before considering them, in case a more senior carrier submits a request for the same day. Clock starts ticking at Saturday COB. In a generous interpretation, Sunday (when I presume the office is closed and no manager would be present to decide on the leave request) is Day One, Monday is Day Two, and Tuesday (a holiday when presumably no manager would be present to make a decision) would be Day Three. You received the denial the following day, Wednesday.

And here is where is becomes not so clear, given that agreed upon interpretation in the RCAM about no gotchas or game-playing: as long as your office doesn't operate on Sundays or holidays, I don't think it would be unreasonable for management to argue that Sunday and Tuesday should not be counted, and the denial was issued after a single workday (Monday).

The contract does not exclude Sundays or holidays as part of the three days only because those continue to be workdays in many offices.

Regardless, I think the local steward is getting bogged down here, and should completely drop the three day argument because you've said there are 8 leave replacements and only four are scheduled on the days you've requested. If that's the case, that's what the local steward should be arguing, not a back and forth on what constitutes "three days." Leave is to be granted according to the wishes of the carrier provided a leave replacement is available (Article 10.2.A). I imagine management doesn't want to grant leave to regular carriers and plans to keep the "extra" RCAs in reserve to run parcels and in case of call outs, but sorry, that's not allowed.

And just one last point, because I continue to be confused by your use of "they" and "he": the local steward does not approve, deny, or sustain a grievance. Management makes that decision. From your posts, it seems to me as though your local steward has not proceeded with the grievance and met with management at Step 1. It sounds as though they are continuing to "research" the 3-day issue. They need to meet with management ASAP and argue your leave should be granted based upon the availability of those "extra" RCAs.

Is the 3 day rule for 3971 calendar days or work days?

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