i got put on deems list for calling in one time in nine months. Just happened it was the day after labor day. Another carrier in office seems to be taking sick days whenever he accumulates one. Is there a way I can tell if he has been added to the deems list? would seem to be disparate treatment if not?
another deems list question
- Thread starter johnwayne
- Start date
jsthere723
Well-known member
Does he/she have approved FMLA case ?
No idea. It at 20 years old I doubt it.
Here is what The ELM states regarding restricted sick leave.
Supervisors or installation heads with evidence indicating that an employee is abusing sick-leave privileges may place the employee on the restricted sick-leave list. In addition, employees may be placed on the restricted sick-leave list after their sick-leave use has been reviewed on an individual basis and the following actions have been taken:
Supervisors must provide written notice to employees that their names have been added to the restricted sick-leave listing. The notice also explains that, until further notice, the employees must support all requests for sick leave by medical documentation or other acceptable evidence
The employee’s supervisor reviews the employee’s PS Form 3972 for each quarter. If the number of absences charged to sickness has substantially decreased, the employee’s name is removed from the restricted sick-leave list and the employee is notified in writing of the removal.
So, management is to review ALL employees, city , rural, and clerk EACH quarter. It doesn't matter if the employee hasn't missed a day in decades. That employee gets reviewed. You would know or would have known if you were on "the list". Also, the attendance review goes by the quarter. If an employee somehow finds themselves on "the list", he / she would be removed from "the list" if improvement was shown during the next quarter. Based upon what you posted, you should not be on "the list".
513.39
513.391
Supervisors or installation heads with evidence indicating that an employee is abusing sick-leave privileges may place the employee on the restricted sick-leave list. In addition, employees may be placed on the restricted sick-leave list after their sick-leave use has been reviewed on an individual basis and the following actions have been taken:
- An absence file has been established on the employee.
- The immediate supervisor and higher levels of management have reviewed the absence file.
- Absences during the past quarter of LWOP and sick leave that the employee used have been
- reviewed. (No minimum sick-leave balance is established below which the employee’s sick-leave record is automatically considered unsatisfactory.)
- The employee’s supervisor has discussed the employee’s absence record with the employee.
- Subsequent quarterly absences have been reviewed. If the absence logs indicate no improvement, the supervisor must discuss the matter with the employee and include in the discussion advice that if there is no improvement during the next quarter, the employee will be placed on restricted sick leave
513.392
Supervisors must provide written notice to employees that their names have been added to the restricted sick-leave listing. The notice also explains that, until further notice, the employees must support all requests for sick leave by medical documentation or other acceptable evidence
513.393
The employee’s supervisor reviews the employee’s PS Form 3972 for each quarter. If the number of absences charged to sickness has substantially decreased, the employee’s name is removed from the restricted sick-leave list and the employee is notified in writing of the removal.
So, management is to review ALL employees, city , rural, and clerk EACH quarter. It doesn't matter if the employee hasn't missed a day in decades. That employee gets reviewed. You would know or would have known if you were on "the list". Also, the attendance review goes by the quarter. If an employee somehow finds themselves on "the list", he / she would be removed from "the list" if improvement was shown during the next quarter. Based upon what you posted, you should not be on "the list".
jsthere723
Well-known member
Well it could be lifelong if he/ she has it . And if he/she does then he/she is in the clear
johnwayne -- get with your office steward, or if none, your Assistant District Representative.
-- Based on "neciat's" informed posting, have the steward or ADR request to see manglement's:
- Restricted Sick Leave listing
- Your written notice of being placed on the listing
- Notes from manglement's review of quarterly sick leave usage
- Dates and notes from manglement's discussion of absences with you
-- IMHO - if manglement can not produce any of the above, you should be taken off the list.
-- If manglement agrees to take you off, politely request a written notice that you are off the list.
-- Should manglement request ( demand ) you provide a doctor's note for any future sick leave usage, have your doctor bill the post office for providing medical information to a third party, letting the doctor name his fee. ( that's what city carriers do ) Of, course the doctor may indicate HIPPA laws are involved.
"Another carrier in office seems to be taking sick days whenever he accumulates one. "
-- Does that carrier have a sub and you don't?
-- Or that carrier knows where the bodies are buried - and manglement knows it!
-- Based on "neciat's" informed posting, have the steward or ADR request to see manglement's:
- Restricted Sick Leave listing
- Your written notice of being placed on the listing
- Notes from manglement's review of quarterly sick leave usage
- Dates and notes from manglement's discussion of absences with you
-- IMHO - if manglement can not produce any of the above, you should be taken off the list.
-- If manglement agrees to take you off, politely request a written notice that you are off the list.
-- Should manglement request ( demand ) you provide a doctor's note for any future sick leave usage, have your doctor bill the post office for providing medical information to a third party, letting the doctor name his fee. ( that's what city carriers do ) Of, course the doctor may indicate HIPPA laws are involved.
"Another carrier in office seems to be taking sick days whenever he accumulates one. "
-- Does that carrier have a sub and you don't?
-- Or that carrier knows where the bodies are buried - and manglement knows it!
Rt2mailman
Well-known member
There is no "Deems" list for rural carriers. That is a city carrier thing.
Upper managers require lower managers to lessen the use of sick days, so they lie. "YOU ARE ON THE DEEMS DESIREABLE LIST", they say, hoping that will scare you into not using anymore sick days until you die or resign/retire.
The only thing they can do to rurals is place them on the "Restricted sick leave" list as Neciat mentioned above. To do that they have to meet with you quarterly and show a reason why they believe you should be on that list after having 2 quarters of problematic sick leave use, and then put that in writing. Which you can grieve.
When they tell you that you are on such a list, ask to see that list. It doesn't exist for rurals. Then ask to see the consequences of a rural carrier being on such a list, because, "I can't find it in my copy of my contract".
Here's how I avoid any problems with my use of sick leave.
When I believe I am feeling unwell, I put in a sick leave request the day before. This way you are placing them on notice that you will be sick, therefore it is SCHEDULED sick leave and they don't get emails from upper management and there is nothing they can do to you. Yes there is the occasional time you wake up sick and have to call in, but that is rare and rare occasions can't be disciplined.
Here's how you know if you manager is lying to you. There is no contractual backing for their statement and no postal regulation either. I've used this method with managers all the way up to district managers. Each one had to agree that no documentation exists to back up their claim and withdrew the order they were attempting to make.
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