Get back from my route today and post master provided me with 7 day suspension with no loss of time or pay for not providing documentation when I called in sick using my FMLA. When I had my meeting with him and union stewart I explained to him that I don’t go see my doctor so how can I provide documentation (isn’t this the how point of FLMA) I’ve never been written up since I’ve been with the post office for over 3 years now and my 1st time is straight to a 7day suspension that stays in your file...this doesn’t seem right or fair. Shouldn’t it at least be a warning? I mean in all fairness I don’t think it should be anything since it’s FMLA related but? Our union Stewart is absolutely no help at all. I’ve also contacted the local department of labor on our office already before on our office for trying to write me up before but looks like now I have to call again. Department of labor tells me they can’t ask me for documentation or write me up but my post master is telling me he can and our Human Resource department is telling him he can also. What is the right information? Thank you for any help this is so frustrating
Discipline action
- Thread starter Zorro31
- Start date
Deer Smearer
Well-known member
And he can personally be fined for interference with FMLA.
Zorro31 -- "post master provided me with 7 day suspension with no loss of time or pay for not providing documentation when I called in sick using my FMLA. "
-- First of all -- grieve any discipline
-- Secondly, discipline is "supposed" to be progressive ( provided you don't have any previous discipline in/on your record ). Discussion ( informal or formal ) / LOW / 7-day suspension / 14-day suspension with a day of reflection ( if union agrees ) / Discharge / Immediate placement on off-duty status.
-- Did you call the unscheduled leave number ( and get a confirmation number ) or called the office directly?
-- Not having used FMLA, I'd say any medical documentation would be provided when requesting, for lack of a better word, "enrollment" into the program. Anyone??
-- As FMLA is a FEDERAL program, the PM may have wandered into dangerous and uncharted waters. ( cue the music from JAWS )
-- Cherry picking from the FMLA:
- you invoke your entitlement to FMLA, your supervisor MUST approve leave without pay ( LWOP ) for you ( or your substitued leave ) and you ae GUARANTEED the time off.
- your supervisor has NO CHOICE about approving or denying FMLA leave.
-- Your PM may be in violation of the HIPPA law(s) by requesting medical documentation.
-- About the only possible thing not in your favor is the ELM's Section 515/51 Notice. An employee MUST provide a supervisor a PS Form 3971 at least 30 days before the absence if the need for FMLA leave is foreseeable. If 30 days notice is not practicable, the employee MUST give notice as soon as practicable.
-- First of all -- grieve any discipline
-- Secondly, discipline is "supposed" to be progressive ( provided you don't have any previous discipline in/on your record ). Discussion ( informal or formal ) / LOW / 7-day suspension / 14-day suspension with a day of reflection ( if union agrees ) / Discharge / Immediate placement on off-duty status.
-- Did you call the unscheduled leave number ( and get a confirmation number ) or called the office directly?
-- Not having used FMLA, I'd say any medical documentation would be provided when requesting, for lack of a better word, "enrollment" into the program. Anyone??
-- As FMLA is a FEDERAL program, the PM may have wandered into dangerous and uncharted waters. ( cue the music from JAWS )
-- Cherry picking from the FMLA:
- you invoke your entitlement to FMLA, your supervisor MUST approve leave without pay ( LWOP ) for you ( or your substitued leave ) and you ae GUARANTEED the time off.
- your supervisor has NO CHOICE about approving or denying FMLA leave.
-- Your PM may be in violation of the HIPPA law(s) by requesting medical documentation.
-- About the only possible thing not in your favor is the ELM's Section 515/51 Notice. An employee MUST provide a supervisor a PS Form 3971 at least 30 days before the absence if the need for FMLA leave is foreseeable. If 30 days notice is not practicable, the employee MUST give notice as soon as practicable.
I always call the 800 # directly. That is exactly my question/concern is if he can even be asking me for documentation as I don’t go to the doctor for ever occuruance I have. I asked him if he is going to pay for my doctor visit and he said no that is on my time. I am not letting this go and will be fighting it all the way
gotstamps
Well-known member
Definitely grieve this. It’s an easy win for the Union!
You are not required to provide documentation when FMLA related. As was said above, discipline is supposed to be progressive so your PM is skipping all the steps. ALSO, the only time mgmt can require a Dr. note for a single occurrence (not FMLA related) is if a Carrier is placed on the Restricted Sick Leave list. My mgmt won’t even go there even with all the call-ins & discipline handed out here.
Rt2mailman
Well-known member
Here is the reasoning behind managers not being allowed to question FMLA. If an employee has AIDS or hemorrhoids, knowledge of this medical condition may cause undue embarrassment or prejudice for that employee, and any communication of the subject is only between that employee and their doctor. No extra duties can be required of FMLA employees after the initial forms are filled out and submitted. As Gotstamps has mentioned, medical documentation can only be required after an employee has been placed on restricted sick leave . In your 1st step discussion with your manager, inform him that he is sticking his neck out into a federally protected area where managers often get their financial heads cut off. In other words he may be fined.
Zorro31 -- "I always call the 800 # directly."
-- Others have posted that not all post offices get an e-mail notification from the Unscheduled Leave phone number, which is not really your problem, especially if you have a confirmation number.
-- Anyone know if FMLA is specifically noted or mentioned in the e-mail notice?
-- In any case, the PM should be aware of you being in the FMLA program and consider your absence is FMLA-related before jumping to discipline.
-- If manglement is insistent on medical documentation for your absence, do what city carriers have suggested: tell the doctor to bill the post office, or better yet, the PM directly for supplying medical information to a third party. And let the doctor's conscience be his / her guide on what to charge.
-- If the PM doesn't pay, then the good doctor could turn the bill over to a collection agency. That could be the end to the PM's dream of a "plum" assignment.
-- Others have posted that not all post offices get an e-mail notification from the Unscheduled Leave phone number, which is not really your problem, especially if you have a confirmation number.
-- Anyone know if FMLA is specifically noted or mentioned in the e-mail notice?
-- In any case, the PM should be aware of you being in the FMLA program and consider your absence is FMLA-related before jumping to discipline.
-- If manglement is insistent on medical documentation for your absence, do what city carriers have suggested: tell the doctor to bill the post office, or better yet, the PM directly for supplying medical information to a third party. And let the doctor's conscience be his / her guide on what to charge.
-- If the PM doesn't pay, then the good doctor could turn the bill over to a collection agency. That could be the end to the PM's dream of a "plum" assignment.
Oh he knows it is FMLA related as it was all discussed when he had a PDI with me and the union. And all my responses was “this is FMLA related you may not ask me these questions” and now this is my consequence apparently. Which is why I added union is no help at all! I told him he can pay my doctor bill then and he told me everyone else brings in documentation- if everyone else jumped off a bridge would you too?!
The arm chair lawyers may be part right and part wrong in this case.
" Leave covered under the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) must be designated as FMLA-protected and the employer must inform the employee of the amount of leave that will be counted against the employee's FMLA leave entitlement. In order to determine whether leave is covered under the FMLA, the employer may request that the leave be supported by a certification. ……"
They may not ask you specifics about your condition or dependents condition but can ask for documentation.
Catch 22 ? YES. BUT...
They are walking a fine line because say for example someone suffers from chronic migraines, requiring them to see a doctor every time they have a debilitating migraine to provide documentation, may be considered discouraging the use of FMLA, and the Courts have determined that discouraging the use of FMLA is an FMLA Law Violation
" Leave covered under the Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) must be designated as FMLA-protected and the employer must inform the employee of the amount of leave that will be counted against the employee's FMLA leave entitlement. In order to determine whether leave is covered under the FMLA, the employer may request that the leave be supported by a certification. ……"
They may not ask you specifics about your condition or dependents condition but can ask for documentation.
Catch 22 ? YES. BUT...
They are walking a fine line because say for example someone suffers from chronic migraines, requiring them to see a doctor every time they have a debilitating migraine to provide documentation, may be considered discouraging the use of FMLA, and the Courts have determined that discouraging the use of FMLA is an FMLA Law Violation
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gotstamps
Well-known member
In the computer where mgmt can look at a carrier’s attendance record, it does say FMLA-USL. If there is a (*) by it, then it’s in conjunction with a Relief Day or Holiday. These are Red Flags for mgmt but they still cannot require a Dr note for FMLA issues.
If mgmt has issue with it, they can request a verification from FMLA that the carrier be recertified for their medical issue.
If mgmt has issue with it, they can request a verification from FMLA that the carrier be recertified for their medical issue.
My suspension letter that he provided me with states it was for FMLA ( I called in for 3 days and he wanted documentation and I am refusing to give it to him for that fact that it was FMLA) if I did not use FMLA then of course I would provide documentation. I am one of the few that does not give into him at our office when he acts for it, hence this extreme punishment. I am trying to get this from happening again and/or to others. I am a regular also not RCA.
gotstamps
Well-known member
If I want to schedule a doctor or dentist appointment the day before or after my relief day, as far as I'm concerned, that's my bees wax... is there something that says otherwise???
Scheduling is not the issue. The issue is calling in.
Rt2mailman
Well-known member
Zoro , if you have a poor steward I'm sorry that you do, and you are going to have to fight this yourself in a way that makes your steward look better than he is, but this is our system. The discipline you have been given is wrong on many levels. Read the booklet on "defences to discipline" found on this site's knowledge base or the NRLCA site. Your complaint question should be something like, "Does management have just cause to issue a suspension in regards to my FMLA leave?". 1st he is wrong because it is FMLA, 2nd because the discipline is not progressive, and 3rd because you had extenuating circumstances (reasons you were off)that were disregarded. There should be many others, each of which are explained in the defenses to discipline booklet. You can also look up similar grievances in the "steward links by topic" on the NRLCA site that would help you. Keep us posted.
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