Filing first grievance, help advice?

[littlesew&sew]

Sorry in advance for the long post

I have posted here a couple times about this issue. Carrier resigned in my office effective June 29; management failed to post the route in 30 days (in fact, it's still not posted). After being lied to by management about lost paperwork, I misunderstood and thought that an agreement was made with my union rep and mgmnt to post the route by Monday (the 6th) or Tuesday (the 7th).

What actually happened is that union rep contacted district and notified them that there was a vacant route in my office and it needs to be posted. My union rep also sent me a grievance form. This will be my first grievance, and I want to make sure I understand the process.

According to the letter sent with the grievance form, I am supposed to meet with management and discuss the issue. After that meeting, if the issue isn't resolved, mgmnt needs to initial the form. I then need to sign the form, add my statement and return it to my rep. My main concern is that I want my seniority backdated. I have already had the experience where one day of seniority made the difference between staying an RCA or getting a route. When I meet with management, is that what I ask for, backdated seniority?

On the grievance form under "remedy sought by the union," it reads "To have this route posted, awarded and placement completed with the proper effective dates for the awarded carrier's assignment. To make the affected carriers whole for all lost time, wages and benefits."

I guess that I am just confused about what to say to management. He knows the route should have been posted. I reminded him several times during the 30 days. I even mentioned it on the 29th day, and his response was that I was the only one who wants the route so it really doesn't matter when it's posted.

Any advice or opinions on what you would say or how to handle this situation would be greatly appreciated!

 

[btdtret]

littlesew&sew -- " This will be my first grievance, and I want to make sure I understand the process."

-- Search RI's KNOWLEDGEBASE for "grievance". The "Filing A Grievance" hit will lead you through the process.

-- You only need to fill in blocks 1 through 4. Block 4 is normally in the form of a question. Such as: Has manglement violated the contract by not posting a vacant route within 30 days?

-- The Assistant District Representative might be able to come up with a better entry for block 4.

-- Be sure to take a look at the other "hits" that appear.

-- The July 2018 issue of the national magazine has an article entitled "You Can Help Your Stewards Be Successful in the Grievance Process!" You might find something useful in it.

-- Good luck.

 

[HardearnedTan]

really sounds like all you need to discuss with your manager is that you feel they have done a misdeed in not posting the route properly or in a timely fashion as required by the contract.  Your question for box 4 of the 8191 form would be something like "has mgmt. violated the national agreement in not posting route (x) as vacant within the time limits set forth there?" all the rest will be worked out in the investigation of the complaint when your steward or rep gets involved to handle the grievance procedure.mgmt. will maintain that they have a legitimate excuse, so you then are in disagreement; you ask them to initial the 8191 saying you have had this discussion, and you get a copy made, get both copies round-dated in your office, and YOU keep the original to send to your steward or rep along with any other things they have asked for from you, which is usually going to be:  your written statement of the story you are disagreeing about, a recent form 50 (personnel action form) that shows your ID info, status, etc., and the Authorization & Release form that allows the steward or rep to then act on your behalf with your personal info.  Easy peasy.the wording in the remedy sought by union will cover "making you whole" for all lost wages and benefits, meaning if you win the grievance they would have to take note of when it SHOULD have made you eligible to take the route and this would be 'backdating your seniority'.don't waste time, you need to get the form(s) to your steward ASAP, as there are strict time limits to get this moving--14 days to go to your manager, then the clock ticks for the steward to act on the paperwork packet you send or give to them (RIGHT AWAY!) after you get the mgmt. initials if they don't agree to work it out with you at that first discussion.

 

[Jules Pontiac]

ask your postmaster who his "step 1 designee" is. This can vary based on size of office but it is the postmaster's call whether you meet with him or somebody he designates
this meeting is known as the "step 1 informal discussion"
You and the manager are meeting in an attempt to resolve the issue WITHOUT filing a grievance.
Whatever Union official sent you the grievance form knew what they were doing when they filled out the remedy sought by the Union part
When you meet with the manager you just tell them that is what you want to occur and will they agree to do so!
"proper effective dates" part covers what you said was your main concern. Seniority. And it also states that you be "made whole" for lost time wages and benefits/which means that once they figuire out what the proper effective date IS then you will be compensated(made whole) for all leave that should have been earned/wages that you should have gotten/seniority
you should probably take a calendar and a copy of the contract to the meeting in case you are meeting with somebody not familiar with the details so you can demonstrate that what the contract says should have happened didn't
If the manager you meet with is agreeable to what you are asking for then ask them for a Step 1 settlement form and the two of you sign it date it and make a copy to send to your union rep and a copy for yourself
Why this form isn't in the RMT database under forms is a good question wink wink
Your local manager might get a dazed and confused look when you ask for the form but technically they are supposed to have the form available
You might have to tell your union rep that he needs to send you a copy but that would be good news and a best case scenario
If on the other hand the person you meet with goes HUH? NO! FORGET IT!
then you just have to say the words
"Then this is Step 1 of the grievance procedure" and you have filed the grievance
In this case do as the Union rep told you
sign it date it write your statement
Send it to him CERTIFIED MAIL so you have a record of when you sent it and when it was recieved. Call or email him/her and let them know it is on the way as a clock is ticking and only the union faces consequences for not meeting time limits
So no need to be contentious or argumentative. Saying the words "well since we cant agree then this is step 1 of the grievance procedure" is your ace in the hole. Just state the facts as you know them and tell them what you would consider as a settlement.
This should all be accomplished at the same time as the meeting.MAYBE let them think about it while you go deliver your route but it does not drag on. You either reach an agreement OR you file a grievance
On the step 1 Joint form there is a place where you state the date that the informal discussion took place. That is where you would LIKE to have the manager initial that the meeting occured. That is what is meant when the Union rep told you they are supposed to sign it
Not a big deal if they dont want to/do not let this be an issue! If you have to file and the manager isnt willing to initial the date the meeting occured just make that a sentence in your statement
Manager was given the opportunity to initial the form and chose not to
hope this helps

 

[littlesew&sew]

Thank you everyone for your great advice! I will definitely read up in the knowledgebase so that I am as informed and prepared as possible.

 

[littlesew&sew]

Had my step 1 discussion with the PM today. He agreed that the contract violation occurred. I told him that I wanted my seniority backdated, back pay, and benefits backdated. He said that he would look into it. I'm thinking that I should have been more assertive, but he didn't initial the grievance form or put anything in writing.

He did tell me that we could agree to extend the 14-day deadline for filing the grievance so all of this could be figured out. I've waited long enough. I'm not really willing to agree to extending the deadline, even if it is allowed.

 

[btdtret]

littlesew&sew -- be sure to note on your copy that the PM did not sign or initial the grievance form.

-- At least he agreed there was a contract violation, but not in writing. And agreed to extend the 14-day period.

-- Your Assistant District Representative will have a better handle on getting backdated seniority, pay, and benefits.

-- Also check with the ADR about another grievance since the bottom left corner of the 8191 has a block for the Signature of Installation Head ( the PM ) or Designee and Telephone No!

-- Just be sure your e-bidding is correct!!

 

[HardearnedTan]

You and mgmt. have to put in writing that you agree to extend the time limit on your grievance with a form you can get from your steward or probably online at ruralinfo--otherwise it doesn't count!  From this point on you have to document E.v.e.r.y.thing!

 

[BeatsAll-IEverSeen]

Management has a maximum of 71 days from June 29th to place you on the route, so 9/7 is the date from which you would (potentially) base your backdated seniority. Keep in mind that having your conversion date backdated by Eagan will create a Letter of Demand for the gap in retroactive benefits, a cost which may or may not be worth it to you.September 7th is the beginning of a pay period. Forget the extension and either have this idiot manager to initial the 3b block or get your ADR involved immediately so the route can be posted, awarded and your placement on the new route begin 9/7 -- there's still time for that to happen.Resignations often create delays because all of the administrative actions necessary to separate the person are done after the fact, not prior to the person's last day (the opposite of what is customary when a person retires -- all of the paperwork is completed beforehand). So a resignation for a career employee usually creates a 1 to 2 PP delay. Again, contact your ADR. That is the person who can help you. 

 

[Shafted]

Your PM is stalling, and hoping to schmooz things over while not doing their job and they know it. Note the grievance as not initialed, and pass it up the food chain. If you cave in and back down and keep taking this empty promises chitter chatter from this clown you will get walked on.

 

[EthelAnne]

Super terrific advice from Jules Pontiac and hope you took note of the fact that your PM does not need to sign anything for the grievance to move forward. There's nothing your PM can do to fix this situation--this grievance needs to move up to the District level in order to be resolved, so nothing to be gained by the PM delaying or refusing to sign. Follow Jules Pontiac's excellent instructions (I numbered the steps for clarity):

"1. In this case do as the Union rep told you sign it date it and write your statement

2. Send it to your union rep CERTIFIED MAIL so you have a record of when you sent it and when it was recieved. Call or email him/her and let them know it is on the way as a clock is ticking and only the union faces consequences for not meeting time limits

3. No need to be contentious or argumentative with PM. Saying the words "well since we cant agree then this is step 1 of the grievance procedure" is your ace in the hole. You either reach an agreement during the informal discussion OR you file a grievance.

4. On the step 1 Joint form there is a place where you state the date that the informal discussion took place. That is where you would LIKE to have the manager initial that the meeting occured. That is what is meant when the Union rep told you they are supposed to sign it
Not a big deal if they dont want to/do not let this be an issue!

5. If you have to file and the manager isnt willing to initial the date the meeting occured just make that a sentence in your statement
Manager was given the opportunity to initial the form and chose not to."

 

[Jules Pontiac]

Nobody has any authority to extend the 14 day time limit to file
To re emphsize:
you are trying to resolve the issue at the step 1 informal discussion step WITHOUT filing a grievance
No grievance is filed until you say the magic words "this is step 1 of the grievance procedure" at which point it belongs to the union and YOU no longer have the right to negotiate the settlement
that is why i suggested you maybe let him think about it while you delivered your route
but only one of two things should occur
1) he signs agreeing to your demands for settlement or
2) you say the magic words and send it to your union rep
dont let it drag on beyond the 14 days
nobody has any authority and it can only cost YOU not him

 

[littlesew&sew]

Thank you, Jules Pontiac and EthelAnne for your advice. I spoke with him yesterday when I finished the route, and I don't think I made it clear that I intend to file. I think I was just hoping the route posted today.

I'm not working today, but I will be working tomorrow. I plan on speaking to him first thing tomorrow morning, getting him to initial the grievance form, and mailing it tomorrow. As you advised, I will send it certified mail.

Thanks again!!

 

[Jules Pontiac]

when you speak to him if he is not willing to on the spot agree to your demands remember to say the magic words
"Then consider this step 1 of the grievance procedure"
glad i was able to help
take care

 

[Howah44]

Be sure you get the "round date" device and date all paperwork and make copies of everything and take the copies home, things can disappear.

 

[littlesew&sew]

Just a quick update. After talking with my PM on Aug 8, I agreed to give him until today to get the route posted and my seniority backdated.

No surprise that NOTHING has happened. The route still isn't posted, and he hadn't even begun to do anything. So he signed the grievance paperwork and it's on the way certified mail to my rep.

I did find out today that the PM will be leaving for a 2-week vacation on Friday, and then he will be on detail in another office immediately following his vacation so the supervisor or OIC or whoever is in charge better be able to take care of my grievance in the postmaster's absence!

 

[btdtret]

littlesew&sew -- "Just a quick update. After talking with my PM on Aug 8, I agreed to give him until today to get the route posted and my seniority backdated.

No surprise that NOTHING has happened. The route still isn't posted, and he hadn't even begun to do anything. So he signed the grievance paperwork and it's on the way certified mail to my rep.

I did find out today that the PM will be leaving for a 2-week vacation on Friday, and then he will be on detail in another office immediately following his vacation so the supervisor or OIC or whoever is in charge better be able to take care of my grievance in the postmaster's absence!"

-- Be sure to let your Assistant District Representative know of your PM's plans for vacation and being off on detail.

-- The ADR might be able to phone the PM to get things straightened out prior to the PM's departure. Or a face-to-face should get the matter settled.

-- If not, you can probably bet the incoming OIC will say "Sorry, I am not familiar with that has happened in the past at this office. Best to wait until the PM gets back."

 

[littlesew&sew]

Btdtret thanks for the advice on giving my ADR the heads up. I sent a message to her this morning letting her know that the grievance packet was on its way. After your post, I sent an additional message to let her know that the PM would be out after Friday and that the supervisor is aware and up to date on the situation.

 

[Shafted]

Your PM leaving was a classic example of pass the buck, say nothing do nothing mgt.

 

[littlesew&sew]

And I feel like the classic example of a naive idiot that believed that my PM would actually try to do something about this situation without my filing a grievance!