LTM question

[Rt2mailman]

We're not a non-profit in the legal sense. We're a government agency the same as the military or CIA and such. We're actually in the category the FDIC and Federal Bank are in since we're self funded.

That being said you aren't allowed to go up driveways period unless there is a hardship delivery OR the delivery point is the front door. Look it up. We cannot deviate from our routes and a driveway is a deviation. I was shocked finding this out. This also applies to apartment front doors, too, apparently from my research.

Yeah, you're going to have to show written proof of that, been doing it the right way for over 30 years. What about our po603 saying if you can't attract a customer to the box you have to deliver to the door, and what about Accountables?

 

[Rural-life-0323]

Yeah, you're going to have to show written proof of that, been doing it the right way for over 30 years. What about our po603 saying if you can't attract a customer to the box you have to deliver to the door, and what about Accountables?

I already did in another thread. You can't use a driveway if it requires you to back up. It's not part of the line of travel so you're deviating to do so. You park, if possible, and walk to the door if it's less than 1/2 a mile one way. I swore an oath. It's the real way to do it.

And yes you honk to get there attention. Actually what the DMM 508 section says (not PO 603) is that you CANNOT leave a package at the door UNLESS you have written permission to do so OR they answer the door OR it says "Carrier - Leave if no response" on the label. Otherwise you leave a 3849 and hold it, per the strict language.

Practice and policy are not the same. No one I've talked to knew about that DMM stuff, but that is the actual policy.

 

[Rt2mailman]

PO 603
331.2 Oversized Parcels
331.21 Attract Customer to Box
If a parcel is too large for the box, make a reasonable effort to attract the
customer to the box to receive the parcel. Do this by sounding the horn or by
hailing the customer. If unsuccessful, you must deliver parcels to any
residence or business that is on the line of travel, or within one-half mile of
the route and has a passable road leading to it. You are required to dismount
to effect delivery if there is no response to your efforts to have the customer
come to the vehicle, or if the customer requests that you do so. In
Carrier Performance on Route 332.12
September 2013 77
multi-tenant buildings, make every effort to deliver parcels to customers
using existing building notification procedures.
Please explain this away.

 

[Rural-life-0323]

Not sure which part needs explanation.

DMM 508 2.2.3 Parcel Delivery
An ordinary parcel too large to fit into a customer’s mailbox is not left unless the customer has filed a written order with the postmaster relieving the USPS and carriers of all responsibility in case of loss or depredation of any such parcel left outside the box.

DMM 508 1.2 Carrier Release Endorsement for Parcels
The carrier release endorsement “CARRIER—LEAVE IF NO RESPONSE” instructs carriers to leave the parcel if no one is available to accept the parcel or when the addressee has filed a written order to allow a carrier to leave the parcel. A parcel may be left in an unprotected location, such as a stairway or uncovered porch, only when it bears the “CARRIER—LEAVE IF NO RESPONSE” endorsement. The endorsement must appear directly to the left of the postage area (preferred) or directly below the return address as specified in 102.4.1 and 202.4.3.

You already noted that we "are required to dismount"

Basically if you leave a parcel without a local policy or the authorized reasons you're in violation of policy and if it's stolen this is why USPS has to pay the claims since we are not authorized to leave the parcels in some cases. BTW this is why Amazon and UPS puts "Carrier - Leave if no response" on the packages. If they want us to leave them and not give them back, they have to do this by policy.

The word driveway doesn't exist in either PO 603 or DMM and the RRECS Q&A refers to them as "out of route"

287. Is our EMA changing with RRECS? Are we going to be paid our actual mileage from scanner (going up driveways, etc.) or the same mileage from 4003?
A. There is no change to EMA under RRECS. It will still be based on the official route mileage. The ‘out of route’ driving up driveways etc. is not included in EMA. “Our of Route” (OOR) driving only affects the driving time compensable under RRECS.

Hope that explains things better.

 

[DohnJalton]

You cant drive up driveways.
You cant drive up driveways that require you to back up.
You can drive down driveways but you dont get compensated for it.

What is the next goal post going to be?

You cant drive up a driveway if it is a full moon and after winter solstice, UNLESS it is on a odd day of the week, then you can drive up the driveway, but you have to be wearing red or blue.

 

[FrozenToes]

Not sure which part needs explanation.

DMM 508 2.2.3 Parcel Delivery
An ordinary parcel too large to fit into a customer’s mailbox is not left unless the customer has filed a written order with the postmaster relieving the USPS and carriers of all responsibility in case of loss or depredation of any such parcel left outside the box.

DMM 508 1.2 Carrier Release Endorsement for Parcels
The carrier release endorsement “CARRIER—LEAVE IF NO RESPONSE” instructs carriers to leave the parcel if no one is available to accept the parcel or when the addressee has filed a written order to allow a carrier to leave the parcel. A parcel may be left in an unprotected location, such as a stairway or uncovered porch, only when it bears the “CARRIER—LEAVE IF NO RESPONSE” endorsement. The endorsement must appear directly to the left of the postage area (preferred) or directly below the return address as specified in 102.4.1 and 202.4.3.

You already noted that we "are required to dismount"

Basically if you leave a parcel without a local policy or the authorized reasons you're in violation of policy and if it's stolen this is why USPS has to pay the claims since we are not authorized to leave the parcels in some cases. BTW this is why Amazon and UPS puts "Carrier - Leave if no response" on the packages. If they want us to leave them and not give them back, they have to do this by policy.

The word driveway doesn't exist in either PO 603 or DMM and the RRECS Q&A refers to them as "out of route"

287. Is our EMA changing with RRECS? Are we going to be paid our actual mileage from scanner (going up driveways, etc.) or the same mileage from 4003?
A. There is no change to EMA under RRECS. It will still be based on the official route mileage. The ‘out of route’ driving up driveways etc. is not included in EMA. “Our of Route” (OOR) driving only affects the driving time compensable under RRECS.

Hope that explains things better.

Read the P.O.603 again. It states " passable road". Look up the definition of passable road.
So did you have everyone of your customers fill out a PS form 4232 ?

 

[Rt2mailman]

I believe the DMM 508 2.2.3 is referring to leaving parcels outside but "at box" as was commonly done 30 years ago. To do that now, we must have the form 4232 stating that we can. Without that form parcels must be left "at door", as our scanner gives us that as one of the choices.
True, that nowhere does it say that we MUST drive to that door up to 1/2 of a mile from the route, but that we must deliver. You go ahead and walk it, the rest of us will drive, as the Rrecs time paid to deliver parcels to the door is based on drive time from box to parking place near door to enable dismount and door delivery.
I just imagine what your 2080/2240 time must be if you have a real "Rural" route and walk to all of those doors upto 1/2 mile from their boxes.

 

[Rural-life-0323]

What is the next goal post going to be?

You cant drive up a driveway if it is a full moon and after winter solstice, UNLESS it is on a odd day of the week, then you can drive up the driveway, but you have to be wearing red or blue.

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm not moving any goal posts

I'm saying you aren't allowed to use driveways at all unless the delivery point is the front door as in cases of hardships (but only if there is a clear and safe way to turn around).

Not only are you leaving the routes line of travel but in most cases you could be causing an unsafe act if backing in or out is an issue. You're also on private property at that point so, as one of our carriers found out, you can be personally sued for damages you cause since you're in violation of the policy.

Listen, I think it's complete BS because my route has apartments and my interpretation of the strict policy means I'm deviating from my authorized line of travel to get to peoples door in the complex, myself.

I'm not saying I agree. I was told I didn't know the policy and so I laid it out in copy and paste, black and white text.

I'm also curious where you quoted me on that from? Did you edit my words to make your point? I never said that?

 

[Rural-life-0323]

Read the P.O.603 again. It states " passable road". Look up the definition of passable road.
So did you have everyone of your customers fill out a PS form 4232 ?

A private driveway that requires backing up to enter or exit is not a passable road. Period.

I have apartments so it's not an issue for me, but the way I read this is I'm technically deviating from route when I go to doors however as you pointed out why I believe I'm fine. The apartments have passable roads.

Oh and yes I have a TON of 4232's filled out being the nature of apartments and people moving in and out.

 

[Rural-life-0323]

I believe the DMM 508 2.2.3 is referring to leaving parcels outside but "at box" as was commonly done 30 years ago. To do that now, we must have the form 4232 stating that we can. Without that form parcels must be left "at door", as our scanner gives us that as one of the choices.
True, that nowhere does it say that we MUST drive to that door up to 1/2 of a mile from the route, but that we must deliver. You go ahead and walk it, the rest of us will drive, as the Rrecs time paid to deliver parcels to the door is based on drive time from box to parking place near door to enable dismount and door delivery.
I just imagine what your 2080/2240 time must be if you have a real "Rural" route and walk to all of those doors upto 1/2 mile from their boxes.

No. I have all apartments. Not an issue for me except for one location. I mapped the proper distances so I'm getting paid in that case.

The problem you all have going up driveways is where are you mapped for the park point? If you don't make the park point where you actually park good luck if they go after you for falsifying records. You're also losing a TON of money NOT following the policy. I map and park in the proper and legal places and my route is the only one going UP every survey (growth helps too) in my office.

And that is 30 year and a today policy that most people ignore. The parcel cannot be left at the door in the ways I described, per the policy. The local PM can make a local policy that you leave everything however if you get in trouble for leaving a 3849 keep this info in your back pocket. They CANNOT write you up for not leaving the package if you can't by policy. They can only write you up for insubordination and that could be tossed out by the union since you are NOT in violation of any actual policy.

I'm laying out ways to not go to doors in some cases and you all want to challenge copy and paste policy with me. Geez. I don't agree with it either, but what I'm saying is fact.

BTW no 2080 issue and I've taken this route from an H route to an overburdened 48K in a couple years. Growth helped but the route is paid right without that and was growing before the growth factored in.

 

[FrozenToes]

A private driveway that requires backing up to enter or exit is not a passable road. Period.

I have apartments so it's not an issue for me, but the way I read this is I'm technically deviating from route when I go to doors however as you pointed out why I believe I'm fine. The apartments have passable roads.

Oh and yes I have a TON of 4232's filled out being the nature of apartments and people moving in and out.

Lol. I never said anything about backing to enter or exit. Carriers can complete delivery on passable roads. Not all roads are passable. Not all delivery points ( for parcels) have a safe way for carriers to turnaround. Those points would not receive parcel delivery. So I think we are essentially saying the same thing.
Matter of fact, I told a carrier this week ,not to deliver, if he couldn't safely turn around.