1767 due to tiredness (+12hrs)

[Static]

Have any of you ever filled out a 1767 Safety Form due to being so exhausted that you deemed it unsafe to go out with a 2nd trip after already working over 12 hrs? Having done so myself, I now have management trying to force me to sign a leave slip for that day's work. Their action is saying, "Even though you completed your entire route, because you filled out the 1767 Safety Form and couldn't continue delivering your 2nd trip (due to eye strain, headache, and exhaustion), we are going to make you fill out a leave slip and use Sick leave or Annual leave for the whole day".

What are your thoughts about this?

 

[jaymacgthree]

My thoughts are if they will play that game you should beat them at their own game by putting in leave ahead of time and not work that day. Why the heck would anyone want to work AND use their personal leave?

I'm going to double back and add that you are being retaliated against for reporting safety issue. Don't ignore this, it should be reported beyond your office.

 

[psd181]

Actually management is correct here. If you fail to complete your entire route, then you must use annual or sick leave for that day. The grievance would be "What constitutes completion of entire route?" argument ......................... would it be delivery of all mail scheduled for that day? Would it be carrier has served all customers and all miles? would it be a 2nd trip is down after "completion" of route and therefore carrier had completed and not required to use leave?

 

[psd181]

I tried to push that issue several times but management always backed down and got someone to make the 3rd and 4th trips instead of having a griievance filed.

 

[Static]

psd181. What if a form 1767 was filed?

During Christmas "Peak" Season (and after), many routes almost double in the volume of spurs and packages they receive. If it takes until 10pm to complete the route once in total, and there are another 60-100 parcels to deliver (2nd trip), would you expect them to "complete" the route and finish at 12 or later? Would there be a safety concern there?

What if after 13 hours on the route, the carrier's vision was getting blurry or a migraine was coming on? This is why carriers fill out a 1767 Safety Form. So they can safely say that they did as much as they could for the Post Office but they could continue no further. It would be unsafe for them and the Post Office (liability).

Think about it....after 12 hrs (and full completion of main route/all DPS/flats) to arrive back at the Post Office and see a mountain of parcels just sitting there, it's pitch black outside and your eyes are straining and head pounding. For management to then threaten you that if you don't go back out there and deliver the rest of these packages tonight, your work will be null and you will have to use a sick day/AL.

Which one would you use psd181? Sick day or Annual, the choice is yours.

Gee, thanks management, how nice of you.

 

[UnknownUser]

We have a 12 hour rule here that is, they won't let you go over 12 hours and if they do, they must pay a grievance. Career and non career.

 

[psd181]

psd181. What if a form 1767 was filed?

During Christmas "Peak" Season (and after), many routes almost double in the volume of spurs and packages they receive. If it takes until 10pm to complete the route once in total, and there are another 60-100 parcels to deliver (2nd trip), would you expect them to "complete" the route and finish at 12 or later? Would there be a safety concern there?

What if after 13 hours on the route, the carrier's vision was getting blurry or a migraine was coming on? This is why carriers fill out a 1767 Safety Form. So they can safely say that they did as much as they could for the Post Office but they could continue no further. It would be unsafe for them and the Post Office (liability).

Think about it....after 12 hrs (and full completion of main route/all DPS/flats) to arrive back at the Post Office and see a mountain of parcels just sitting there, it's pitch black outside and your eyes are straining and head pounding. For management to then threaten you that if you don't go back out there and deliver the rest of these packages tonight, your work will be null and you will have to use a sick day/AL.

Which one would you use psd181? Sick day or Annual, the choice is yours.

Gee, thanks management, how nice of you.

 

[Rt2mailman]

Well, your managers kinda got you on this one. Use it as experience and prepare for the next time. Some managers are reasonable, and most likely these were told to do this by some nasty poom or district manager that read your 1767.
Explain to them, that technically they are right, because you used a physical aliment as a safety reason for not completing your route. If you were to have used a form 1767 due to the "Unsafeness" of trying to deliver in the dark and possibly not having 8 hours between the next day's start time, that may have worked, but not claiming a physical ailment. Physical ailments= sick leave. Explain that in the future, when you expect that you will get a migraine and blurred vision after seeing an extremely overburdened day without a chance of receiving aux help, that you will take a sick day an hour after you start instead of being forced to take one after working for 12 hours for free.
The other option you have is to do nothing and let them try to discipline you for not completing your route which you then could fight with a grievance. If they put in a sick/annual for you, they are falsifying documentation, since you never put one in.
If it were me, I would explain to my manager that following through with requiring me to take a sick day would ensure he will have to carry my next overburdened day because I can't work that many hours without getting sick. It would require me to put in a sick day as soon as I notice that I would need to work that long of a day, without aux help.

 

[psd181]

psd181. What if a form 1767 was filed?

During Christmas "Peak" Season (and after), many routes almost double in the volume of spurs and packages they receive. If it takes until 10pm to complete the route once in total, and there are another 60-100 parcels to deliver (2nd trip), would you expect them to "complete" the route and finish at 12 or later? Would there be a safety concern there?

What if after 13 hours on the route, the carrier's vision was getting blurry or a migraine was coming on? This is why carriers fill out a 1767 Safety Form. So they can safely say that they did as much as they could for the Post Office but they could continue no further. It would be unsafe for them and the Post Office (liability).

Think about it....after 12 hrs (and full completion of main route/all DPS/flats) to arrive back at the Post Office and see a mountain of parcels just sitting there, it's pitch black outside and your eyes are straining and head pounding. For management to then threaten you that if you don't go back out there and deliver the rest of these packages tonight, your work will be null and you will have to use a sick day/AL.

Which one would you use psd181? Sick day or Annual, the choice is yours.

Gee, thanks management, how nice of you.

Thanks to Dale Holton, Randy Anderson, Don Cantriel, Janette Dwyer, drunken solder boy, Dennis, and others lacking spine, those are the rules. 2nd trips are part of the route and must be done before route is complete. Even if it takes 24 hours, you have to complete the route or use annual or sick leave (LWOP is option also). When they gave away the 2nd trips issue in 2005, this is what the language says. One of my other posts mentions 3rd and 4th trips. I refused to do 3rd and 4th after 12 hours. Management didn't push the issue but I was willing to lose a day of leave to accomplish new language over 3rd and 4th ... 5th... 6th trips............ I called Randy and Dale on that issue and ran for office that year just because of it. I was a "rising" person and probably would have been on the board a few years later because they liked me (which goes a long way at the conventions). But I pissed them off because of their lack of foresight. Yes, it was a small issue in 2005 and only dealt with a few routes which were getting several large parcels that wouldn't fit in a car with other mail. But the language opened the door, as I knew it would, for what happened when Amazon hit almost all offices. ............ if you go back and read the language of the Bear, DE and Washington, DC 2nd trip settlements in 2005, route is not complete until 2nd trip is done. .................................. to be fair here, as a DSI my last 2 working years, in the office I was domiciled, one rural carrier would not show up for work even after running out of FLMA protection and had many safety violations ( I did the observations). An example, no working brake lights, no working turn signals, never used seat belt, held mail in both hands while doing 50 mph between boxes... Since management was scared to fire her for poor attendence and safety violations, they asked me what they should do. I suggested making her take LWOP (out of leave) on the days she did work to make her quit.

 

[Static]

"you used a physical ailment as a safety reason for not completing your route. If you were to have used a form 1767 due to the "Unsafeness" of trying to deliver in the dark and possibly not having 8 hours between the next day's start time"
Actually, I read up on this a bit (I can't remember where I read it) but Delivering in the dark was not an acceptable reason. Possibly, the 8 hrs between routes (lack of rest/sleep) probably wouldn't work either since your logic of "physical ailments" (eyestrain, exhaustion, blurred vision) puts lack of sleep in the same category.

I am not sure how you ( rt2mailman, psd181) became contempt with management behavior regarding this situation-- [Well, your managers kinda got you on this one. Use it as experience and prepare for the next time.]- Rt2Mailman. [Actually management is correct here. If you fail to complete your entire route, then you must use annual or sick leave for that day.] -ptsd181

Ummm.....How about I challenge this today and correct them.

My 1767 states--"I am too exhausted to continue working today, I do not feel safe and will not put myself or the Post Office at a liability of getting myself injured or having an accident."

A 1767 is titled, Report a Hazard, Unsafe Working Condition or Practice. This is what I am doing. The only reason management is challenging this is to intimidate and retaliate against a carrier for not getting packages delivered which is going to "put them on the list". They do not care about you or your safety.

 

[Surprise!]

I thought he said he finished delivering his route. My understanding is the denial of pay is for the completed route. In the old days the reason the carrier had to take a sick day was because the person that finished the route got the full days pay because we weren't paid by the hour. The money for delivery was still paid just not to the normal delivery person. It wasn’t a punishment, it just made the paperwork work.

Is management claiming that the route delivered it self?

 

[Gotrope]

"you used a physical ailment as a safety reason for not completing your route. If you were to have used a form 1767 due to the "Unsafeness" of trying to deliver in the dark and possibly not having 8 hours between the next day's start time"
Actually, I read up on this a bit (I can't remember where I read it) but Delivering in the dark was not an acceptable reason. Possibly, the 8 hrs between routes (lack of rest/sleep) probably wouldn't work either since your logic of "physical ailments" (eyestrain, exhaustion, blurred vision) puts lack of sleep in the same category.

I am not sure how you ( rt2mailman, psd181) became contempt with management behavior regarding this situation-- [Well, your managers kinda got you on this one. Use it as experience and prepare for the next time.]- Rt2Mailman. [Actually management is correct here. If you fail to complete your entire route, then you must use annual or sick leave for that day.] -ptsd181

Ummm.....How about I challenge this today and correct them.

My 1767 states--"I am too exhausted to continue working today, I do not feel safe and will not put myself or the Post Office at a liability of getting myself injured or having an accident."

A 1767 is titled, Report a Hazard, Unsafe Working Condition or Practice. This is what I am doing. The only reason management is challenging this is to intimidate and retaliate against a carrier for not getting packages delivered which is going to "put them on the list". They do not care about you or your safety.

Do be sure you received a response from safety. And have the poom explain why a mgr would want to push a liability issue.

 

[Rt2mailman]

"you used a physical ailment as a safety reason for not completing your route. If you were to have used a form 1767 due to the "Unsafeness" of trying to deliver in the dark and possibly not having 8 hours between the next day's start time"
Actually, I read up on this a bit (I can't remember where I read it) but Delivering in the dark was not an acceptable reason. Possibly, the 8 hrs between routes (lack of rest/sleep) probably wouldn't work either since your logic of "physical ailments" (eyestrain, exhaustion, blurred vision) puts lack of sleep in the same category.

I am not sure how you ( rt2mailman, psd181) became contempt with management behavior regarding this situation-- [Well, your managers kinda got you on this one. Use it as experience and prepare for the next time.]- Rt2Mailman. [Actually management is correct here. If you fail to complete your entire route, then you must use annual or sick leave for that day.] -ptsd181

Ummm.....How about I challenge this today and correct them.

My 1767 states--"I am too exhausted to continue working today, I do not feel safe and will not put myself or the Post Office at a liability of getting myself injured or having an accident."

A 1767 is titled, Report a Hazard, Unsafe Working Condition or Practice. This is what I am doing. The only reason management is challenging this is to intimidate and retaliate against a carrier for not getting packages delivered which is going to "put them on the list". They do not care about you or your safety.

Not sure what you mean by "Became contempt" , but you mentioned a migraine, and blurred vision, that will be taken as an ailment.
Not sure why they want you delivering that late anyway, because anything delivered and scanned after 8 is considered a failure, which puts them on the list they're trying to avoid.

 

[psd181]

"you used a physical ailment as a safety reason for not completing your route. If you were to have used a form 1767 due to the "Unsafeness" of trying to deliver in the dark and possibly not having 8 hours between the next day's start time"
Actually, I read up on this a bit (I can't remember where I read it) but Delivering in the dark was not an acceptable reason. Possibly, the 8 hrs between routes (lack of rest/sleep) probably wouldn't work either since your logic of "physical ailments" (eyestrain, exhaustion, blurred vision) puts lack of sleep in the same category.

I am not sure how you ( rt2mailman, psd181) became contempt with management behavior regarding this situation-- [Well, your managers kinda got you on this one. Use it as experience and prepare for the next time.]- Rt2Mailman. [Actually management is correct here. If you fail to complete your entire route, then you must use annual or sick leave for that day.] -ptsd181

Ummm.....How about I challenge this today and correct them.

My 1767 states--"I am too exhausted to continue working today, I do not feel safe and will not put myself or the Post Office at a liability of getting myself injured or having an accident."

A 1767 is titled, Report a Hazard, Unsafe Working Condition or Practice. This is what I am doing. The only reason management is challenging this is to intimidate and retaliate against a carrier for not getting packages delivered which is going to "put them on the list". They do not care about you or your safety.

if working over 12 hours was a safety issue, then it would be enshrined in the contract under Article 9.2.A.1 (i). If working over 56 in a week was as unsafe then it wouldn't be in there either. Yes, it sucks but that is what you get when you keep national officers like the ones I mentioned, (new ones aren't any better). If you are physically unable to work over 12 and over 56 in a week, then you need to use sick leave at 4hours into your day, not wait until 12 hours and then complain and file 1767's over your physical conditions. I was forced out on other routes after working those hours. I took over 4 hours to deliver maybe 40 letters and 10 flats and about 10 parcels that fit in the box. I went home and used FLMA for the next 2 days. If I had left for the day, I would have faced not getting paid and then face possible removal for failure to follow instructions. It was easier to say, ok. I will do it, but I'm asking for double my OT rate for those hours. I got paid $500 for 4 hours of work on another route that should have taken 30 minutes. Pick your battles and use rules to your favor. BTW, If I had been told at 10 am, that I would have to carry part of another route, I would have probably used my FLMA and gone home.

 

[psd181]

I thought he said he finished delivering his route. My understanding is the denial of pay is for the completed route. In the old days the reason the carrier had to take a sick day was because the person that finished the route got the full days pay because we weren't paid by the hour. The money for delivery was still paid just not to the normal delivery person. It wasn’t a punishment, it just made the paperwork work.

Is management claiming that the route delivered it self?

If you read the entire 2nd trips settlements from 2005, there is a phase which legally would say that completion of 2nd trips is the full completion of your route. It's in the ema for pay of 40 miles or more. Something akin to if completion of route after doing 2nd trip means carrier over 40 miles then each mile over 40 is paid. So the language says completion is after 2nd trip. And F 21 states if regular carrier is unable to complete the route, then leave must be taken. Of course, this changes if working relief day and each hour actually worked is paid in lieu of taking leave.

 

[LEFTINGUTTER]

Have any of you ever filled out a 1767 Safety Form due to being so exhausted that you deemed it unsafe to go out with a 2nd trip after already working over 12 hrs? Having done so myself, I now have management trying to force me to sign a leave slip for that day's work. Their action is saying, "Even though you completed your entire route, because you filled out the 1767 Safety Form and couldn't continue delivering your 2nd trip (due to eye strain, headache, and exhaustion), we are going to make you fill out a leave slip and use Sick leave or Annual leave for the whole day".

What are your thoughts about this?

Fill out the slip put the next day's date on it let them sign it give you your copy and don't come in the next day and when they call wanting to know where you are text them a pic of the slip they signed giving you the day off. if they change the date it is falsifying documents

 

[U caught my attention]

If you sign a leave slip that means the route was left open and incomplete in an emergency situation. for the day. If it was mportant to finish the route and no one was there except management then they are responsible in an emergency situation to finish the second trip. Kind of shooting themselves in the foot, no?
if they didnt deliver it.

 

[Dominator]

1) PS Form 1767 asks for "recommended action"


2) F-21 defines "other paid leave"



While Annual and Sick leave need requested by the employee, keep in mind that you're requesting a remedy to the work hazard, not requesting an annual or sick day off.

I'd run with a day of "other paid leave" as the remedy in your 1767.

Maybe include the following work day too, for safety's sake, to ensure adequate recovery.

 

[Shannonboy]

BTW, If I had been told at 10 am, that I would have to carry part of another route, I would have probably used my FLMA and gone home.

This is the answer....your pm cant do a thing to you. Period.

 

[possumswerver]

I am a lowly RCA of 11 months who doesn't know all the ropes yet. But I've cited the ELM, with the safety issue of fatigue as an extra CYA move, and left an office I was mandated to at 12 without issue. Fatigue and eye strain are logical consequences of working that long, not some physical ailment falling out of the sky. Your 1767 is fine and it sounds like they're just trying to avoid delivering themselves, getting in trouble with their superiors, or convincing them that they need to allow you aux assistance. Or some combo of the three

ELM 432.32 Maximum Hours Allowed

Except as designated in labor agreements for bargaining unit employees or in emergency situations as determined by the postmaster general (or designee), employees may not be required to work more than 12 hours in 1 service day. In addition, the total hours of daily service, including scheduled workhours, overtime, and mealtime, may not be extended over a period longer than 12 consecutive hours. Postmasters and exempt employees are excluded from these provisions.

And it isn't clear if you mean the second trip for your route, or a second trip for another route. If you're regular, any assistance on other routes is wholly voluntary.

NRLCA National Agreement 30.1.P

A regular rural carrier shall not be required to serve all or part of any rural route other than his or her assigned route except as provided in ELM, Section 546.