Leaving packages at Apt doors.

gotstamps · Feb 25, 2017

PO-603: 331.21

"In multi-tenant buildings, make every effort to deliver parcels to customers using existing building notification procedures."

Deer- this is the last sentence of what you keep referring to in the PO-603.

As I've said previously, there is a notification slip to give tenants letting them know the pkg is at the office. We have one complex that gets the notice with a change 'at the post office' since the complex no longer accepts pkg delivery. Mgmt does NOT want carriers running all over a 700 unit complex delivering pkgs.

If you don't know what to do with apartment pkgs, get instructions from mgmt. SOP is leave them at the apt office. But if they are refusing, let mgmt know & ask what to do. If you're instructed to deliver to EACH door, let mgmt know the approx time it will take to do as they wish adjusting for 'waiting for door to be answered' or just leave it.

Deer Smearer · Feb 25, 2017

<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">gotstamps said 
PO-603: 331.21

"In multi-tenant buildings, make every effort to deliver parcels to customers using existing building notification procedures."

Deer- this is the last sentence of what you keep referring to in the PO-603.

As I've said previously, there is a notification slip to give tenants letting them know the pkg is at the office. We have one complex that gets the notice with a change 'at the post office' since the complex no longer accepts pkg delivery. Mgmt does NOT want carriers running all over a 700 unit complex delivering pkgs.

If you don't know what to do with apartment pkgs, get instructions from mgmt. SOP is leave them at the apt office. But if they are refusing, let mgmt know & ask what to do. If you're instructed to deliver to EACH door, let mgmt know the approx time it will take to do as they wish adjusting for 'waiting for door to be answered' or just leave it. </blockquote>
There is a <a href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.wirlca.org/Documents/Where/question2.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiniJfK8KzSAhVDKiYKHSvzCcUQFggdMAA&usg=AFQjCNEdENICOygxnWNqZUflv2QFf98b8w&sig2=eP_bu3mkX33r3tffk7xZ2Q">1991 Allen Kane letter</a> explaining 331.21 in greater detail.

If there is a parcel acceptance procedure in place, or a notification system, then yes, following that procedure is acceptable.

If the apartment building does not have a system then the delivery of the parcels must be attempted at the door.

gotstamps · Feb 25, 2017

<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">Deer Smearer said 

There is a <a href="https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.wirlca.org/Documents/Where/question2.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiniJfK8KzSAhVDKiYKHSvzCcUQFggdMAA&usg=AFQjCNEdENICOygxnWNqZUflv2QFf98b8w&sig2=eP_bu3mkX33r3tffk7xZ2Q">1991 Allen Kane letter</a> explaining 331.21 in greater detail.

If there is a parcel acceptance procedure in place, or a notification system, then yes, following that procedure is acceptable.

If the apartment building does not have a system then the delivery of the parcels must be attempted at the door. </blockquote>
Can't seem to find that 'letter' on the NRLCA website. Either way... SOP rules and if not sure of proper handling, ask mgmt for instructions. We have a 'shelf unit' for the 1 complex that doesn't want to play along out of the 20+ that actually care about their tenants needs.

Deer Smearer · Feb 25, 2017

<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">gotstamps said 

Can't seem to find that 'letter' on the NRLCA website. Either way... SOP rules and if not sure of proper handling, ask mgmt for instructions. We have a 'shelf unit' for the 1 complex that doesn't want to play along out of the 20+ that actually care about their tenants needs. </blockquote>
Did the link I posted work?

I do agree that if the apartment has a system in place to accept parcels the the carrier would be crazy not to use it.

I think the real issue is that the increase in parcels has stressed everyone in the process. Shippers can't package them properly. Carriers don't have the capacity to transport them. Apartments don't have the space, or manpower, or want to pay for the personnel to handle the items.

Postal manglement is freaking out having to pay clerks and city carriers hourly to sort and deliver the items. And us, the rural carriers get crapped on because the NRLCA is gutless when it comes to addressing the issues that cause rural carriers the greatest harm.

When they agreed to the increase to 30 seconds a parcel those packages were not of the size or quantity we have now. Since we have an evaluated system the USPS is masterful in screwing us. They throw city stuff first. They want us to make 2nd trips for late parcels. They want us to provide larger POVs when even their LLVs are now too small. 2 minutes a mile is a joke. You can go to an apartment complex 2 miles from the office and deliver 100 packages on a second trip and only be entitled to as little as 15 minutes pay if you can justify 7 minutes load time.

oi veh. · Feb 25, 2017

I thank God every day that I have a true rural route and not a suburban one.

Gotstamps, try going here: https://knowledgebase.ruralinfo.net/kb/where-is-that-in-writing/ , 2nd item down.

Deer Smearer · Feb 25, 2017

"Houston-based Camden Property Trust, received one million packages in 2014, they said in a statement to NBC News, and they expect this number to increase by 25 percent to 50 percent in 2015...Camden estimates that it loses about 10 minutes of productivity per package, according to the Wall Street Journal. Crunching the numbers, Camden executives say this adds up to $3.3 million a year."

That one million packages was in 2014, and we know how quantities have skyrocketed since '14.

I don't think it's about not caring about their tenants. It's about having the resources to do so.

Bud Budderly · Feb 25, 2017

I'm curious how everyone handles Amazon parcels at apartment complexes. Here Amazon has directed carriers to "Leave if no response" and under no circumstances (threat of theft, or damage from the elements) are we to leave notice on their parcels. Since Amazons make up the majority of our parcel business, it seems relevant.

Deer Smearer · Feb 26, 2017

<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">Bud Budderly said 
I'm curious how everyone handles Amazon parcels at apartment complexes. Here Amazon has directed carriers to "Leave if no response" and under no circumstances (threat of theft, or damage from the elements) are we to leave notice on their parcels. Since Amazons make up the majority of our parcel business, it seems relevant. </blockquote>
"Mailers who participate in the Carrier Release Program understand that there are unsecured areas where the Postal Service will leave parcels and also understand that carriers will leave parcels without protection from inclement weather.

Liability. By following the mailer’s or addressee’s instructions, the Postal Service provides customers with a more convenient way to receive parcels. Carriers are not liable for loss or theft when the customer’s instructions and postal regulations are followed."

Probably the best clause in all of 603

OutHereSomewhere · Feb 26, 2017

<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">Deer Smearer said 

"Mailers who participate in the Carrier Release Program understand that there are unsecured areas where the Postal Service will leave parcels and also understand that carriers will leave parcels without protection from inclement weather.

Liability. By following the mailer’s or addressee’s instructions, the Postal Service provides customers with a more convenient way to receive parcels. Carriers are not liable for loss or theft when the customer’s instructions and postal regulations are followed."

Probably the best clause in all of 603 </blockquote>
I had one of those a few Christmases back. The package clearly said "Carrier leave if no response." Left it, dog ate it, sender refused to honor their end of the bargain. BTW, sender was Shepler's. The recipient of said package tried to make me have to pay for it. When that didn't work, they did everything they could to get my into trouble...up to contacting their Congressman and Senator. No, in the end I wasn't on the hook for it. But the BS I had to go through was not worth the trouble.

postie1010 · Feb 26, 2017

I have an apartment complex (CBU no parcel lockers) that has a lot of people come and go. For 21 units I have one completed 4232. I leave their parcels at the door as instructed. I do not leave any other parcels and if any residents ask why I tell them without their written permission I leave no parcels. I used to leave all parcels but had 2 complaints of stolen parcels and was nearly attacked by another woman who claimed I left her Amazon Kindle at the neighbors and now I needed to get it back from neighbor- this was told to me after she gave me a good shove in the chest. Turns out that particular person had misaddressed their package to their former apartment (moved 2 doors down). so even though it said leave if no response I still ended up in the middle of unpleasantness. Talked to the PM, called complex manager, informed them they needed parcel lockers which never appeared so leave notices except for the one person who authorizes me to leave them. Also had another situation where a newly built house started getting lots of parcels. I had left a 4232 which was never returned and thought I was doing a good deed by leaving all parcels. Turns out somebody who had stolen someone else's identity was using new address to get lots of stuff for about a month. Police came to interview me on that one. So no 4232 no left parcels is generally my rule

btdtret · Feb 26, 2017

All -- I was going to go out on a limb by saying the PO-603 was written with individual homes in mind based on the passage: If a parcel is too large for the box, make a reasonable effort to attract the customer to the box to receive the parcel. To this by sounding the horn or by hailing the customer. ( Don't think the apartment residences would appreciate that especially when the needed customer lives on the other side of the parking lot. ) There is more about driving to the residence or up 1/2 mile roads.

Then I read a bit farther to find: In multi-tenant buildings, make every effort to deliver parcels to customers using existing building notification procedures.

-- Give the post master a choice:

a. convince apartment management to accept parcels at the front desk, or

b. install multiple USPS large parcel lockers ( on the post office's budget ) on site, or

c. expect the carrier to start going over evaluation on a regular basis if required to go take parcels to every door, or

d. have all the customers fill out a 4232 or 3801. ( side note - at my old office manglement told carriers "Don't worry about it" when asked to supply 4232's. Used to SOP for the carrier to keep such cards in a box at the case )

gotstamps · Feb 26, 2017

<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">btdtret said 

d. have all the customers fill out a 4232 or 3801. ( side note - at my old office manglement told carriers "Don't worry about it" when asked to supply 4232's. Used to SOP for the carrier to keep such cards in a box at the case ) </blockquote>
I've never seen either form used in our office... ever. We just use a 'Vacant card' to get the customer's name(s). We don't get 'instruction' from customers as to where to leave parcels (if not the front door) unless they write us a note or get a message from the clerks or mgmt. I didn't know anyone still used those forms until I moved to a small town 8 yrs ago.

MiddleOfNowhere · Feb 26, 2017

there was a reference above to camden properties receiving one million packages in a single year - what isn't told, is that they have in excess of 62,000 apts. it averages at 16 parcels, per unit, per year. i have lots of residents that have that volume every week. they all get delivered to the door. less than a package every 3 weeks, is nothing. were talking that someone doesn't want to go all over a 700 unit complex to deliver packages, but it's okay if you have 700 houses that you have to deliver to. - FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO, OR DO THE JOB!!!!

gotstamps · Feb 26, 2017

<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">MiddleOfNowhere said 
there was a reference above to camden properties receiving one million packages in a single year - what isn't told, is that they have in excess of 62,000 apts. it averages at 16 parcels, per unit, per year. i have lots of residents that have that volume every week. they all get delivered to the door. less than a package every 3 weeks, is nothing. were talking that someone doesn't want to go all over a 700 unit complex to deliver packages, but it's okay if you have 700 houses that you have to deliver to. - FIND SOMETHING ELSE TO DO, OR DO THE JOB!!!! </blockquote>
I have 640 addresses I deliver to and NEVER have I gotten a pkg for every address & I have the luxury of CBUs for the majority of those addresses. Carriers in my office that have apartments don't JUST have that one complex... they have multiple complexes or curbs & CBUs added to that 700-1500 unit complex. The most pkgs I've had (300) was during Christmas & they have more than I do. It's not a matter of NOT doing their job, it's a matter of NOT getting paid to knock on doors & climbing 2 & 3 floors for each parcel. The rules ARE different for 'multi-tenant buildings' as is stated in the PO-603. It is 'mgmts call' if a complex won't except the pkgs. If MGMT wants them ATTEMPTED, then they need to be aware of the hours over the eval that will happen.

I haven't had to deal with apartments in 9 yrs or so (thankfully) and they received quite a few pkgs back then... BEFORE Amazon. I hope I NEVER get a complex built or added onto my route!

btdtret · Feb 26, 2017

M-O-N -- not to toss any more gas on this thread, but if you have 700 houses, you are not climbing 2 or 3 or more flights of stairs either.

-- I'll add that I did have apartment complexes in the long ago past, way before the insane increase in parcels. The front desk accepted parcels -- until Christmas time, then it was up and down the stairs.

Deer Smearer · Feb 26, 2017

<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">
gotstamps said 

I have 640 addresses I deliver to and NEVER have I gotten a pkg for every address & I have the luxury of CBUs for the majority of those addresses. Carriers in my office that have apartments don't JUST have that one complex... they have multiple complexes or curbs & CBUs added to that 700-1500 unit complex. The most pkgs I've had (300) was during Christmas & they have more than I do. It's not a matter of NOT doing their job, it's a matter of NOT getting paid to knock on doors & climbing 2 & 3 floors for each parcel.

</blockquote>
"and a new standard was authorized granting increased compensation for ordinary parcels"

<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">
The rules ARE different for 'multi-tenant buildings' as is stated in the PO-603.

</blockquote>
"If no alternate procedure exists or cannot be established, the carrier must attempt door delivery of the parcel"

<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">
It is 'mgmts call' if a complex won't except the pkgs. If MGMT wants them ATTEMPTED, then they need to be aware of the hours over the eval that will happen.

I haven't had to deal with apartments in 9 yrs or so (thankfully) and they received quite a few pkgs back then... BEFORE Amazon. I hope I NEVER get a complex built or added onto my route!

</blockquote>
"It is important that carriers and managers understand the carriers' responsibility and ensure compliance"

Three responses to your last post. All are addressed in the Kane letter.

Yes, we do get paid to take items to the door. However it breaks down with the time standard of 30 seconds per parcel, compensation is included. I don't agree with your claim that we are not paid. I would definitely agree with the claim that we are not paid enough for that requirement.

Yes, the rules are different for multi tenant complexes in that we are allowed to use building systems or personnel for parcels, and lacking a system, we are required to attempt those packages at the door.

Manglement does get to decide how to handle attempts in a way. The recent step 4 specifically stated that the 1/2 mile limit cannot be waived even if carriers are compensated extra (amazon not included) so management still needs to follow 603.

The Kane letter specifically says parcels have to be attempted at the door if apartments don't want them at the office. And since Kane was the Assistant Postmaster General I would argue management did decide how to handle the apartment parcels.

gotstamps · Feb 27, 2017

As I said before, I haven't found this 'Kane letter' that you keep referring to. I looked extensively through the NRLCA website & haven't found a THIS Kane letter although there are a few others.

As there was a 'system' in place for parcel delivery & the apt mgmt decided to do away with SOP, I would go to PO mgmt for instruction. I have yet to see a PM add time to a route for special circumstances like this, but miracles could happen. I listed the solution our mgmt came up with.

We definitely do not get paid enough for these parcels when they have to go to ANY door! When I stated that we don't get paid for going to apartment doors for EVERY pkg, I was referring to ALL the extra time that will be required for the task. It will surely push the carrier over evaluation which others have referred to 'working for free'.

Deer Smearer · Feb 27, 2017

<blockquote class="spPostEmbedQuote">gotstamps said 
As I said before, I haven't found this 'Kane letter' that you keep referring to. I looked extensively through the NRLCA website & haven't found a THIS Kane letter although there are a few others.

As there was a 'system' in place for parcel delivery & the apt mgmt decided to do away with SOP, I would go to PO mgmt for instruction. I have yet to see a PM add time to a route for special circumstances like this, but miracles could happen. I listed the solution our mgmt came up with.

We definitely do not get paid enough for these parcels when they have to go to ANY door! When I stated that we don't get paid for going to apartment doors for EVERY pkg, I was referring to ALL the extra time that will be required for the task. It will surely push the carrier over evaluation which others have referred to 'working for free'. </blockquote>
The Kane letter is basically a re-hash of postal bulletin 21803, 11-28-91, page 19

"National Rural Letter Carriers' Association
(NRLCA), a memorandum of understanding was
signed that changed the delivery procedures for
ordinary parcels on rural routes.
Under the new procedure, rural carriers must
make a reasonable effort to attract the customer to
the box by sounding the horn or hailing the cus-
tomer if a parcel is too large for the box. If unsuc-
cessful, the carrier must deliver the parcel to any
residence or business on the line of travel or within
one-half mile of the route with a passable road
leading to it. Carriers must dismount to effect de-
livery if there is no response to their efforts to have
the customer come to the vehicle.
In multitenant buildings, carriers should make
every effort to deliver parcels using existing build-
ing notification procedures. They should use
parcel lockers where this equipment exists.
The ordinary parcel time credit increased from
.333 minutes per parcel to .5 minutes per parcel.
Form 4241-A, Rural Route Evaluation, which all
routes counted in the September national mail
count received, reflected this parcel time standard
change. All routes not counted in September also
received a Form 4241-A. These routes received a
base hour change based on the increase in the
parcel time standard using the latest parcel count
data available in the route file.
The effective date of the standard change and for
compliance with the change in the ordinary parcel
delivery procedures was November 2, 1991."

Unfortunately the letter is a pdf in photo form so I can't get it to copy and post.

Have you try any of the links to find the Kane letter?

<a href="https://knowledgebase.ruralinfo.net/kb/where-is-that-in-writing/">https://knowledgebase.ruralinfo.net/kb/where-is-that-in-writing/</a> (2nd item)

<a href="http://www.wirlca.org/Documents/Where/question2.pdf">http://www.wirlca.org/Documents/Where/question2.pdf</a>

Your office allows noticing parcels. That's great. But they can require door service if the apartments don't want packages left at the office.

Of course manglement wouldn't add time for something considered already compensated for.

MiddleOfNowhere · Feb 27, 2017

the kane letter was available in the first link- and if the nrcla was any good, this website, wouldn't exist. thank god it does......

this is exactly the type of thing, that has gotten us to the point of where we are now. one office says everything has to be attempted to the door if it won't go in the box, the next office, doesn't care about the customers or the service, and lets things slide to letting carriers do whatever they feel like. were does it end- some carriers beating their evaluations on a daily basis, and other carriers, doing it the way they are required, and never seeing the end at posted end of tour times. are time standards have eroded continuously. now in the middle of the industrial time study, we are still debating proper delivery of parcels. problem being, are any of the offices that allow carriers not to first attempt door delivery, in the study group?

this will affect the final delivery standard for all carriers, not just the chosen few. someone mentioned above that those who deliver only to houses, do not generally contend with climbing stairs for 700 apts, but those that deliver to only apts, don't generally contend with driving long lanes, repeated dismounts, loose dogs, and a bevy of other changing conditions. if your climbing stairs, 35-50% of the parcels will be for the ground floor, and 50% of the remaining, will be combined with other parcels for the same apt., or other apts on the same floor of the building. using camden property numbers, a 700 unit complex, would receive less than 40 parcels on an average day. some of them would be delivered by other carriers, like fed ex, or ups. its all part of the job.