LTM question

[Rt2mailman]

We're not a non-profit in the legal sense. We're a government agency the same as the military or CIA and such. We're actually in the category the FDIC and Federal Bank are in since we're self funded.

That being said you aren't allowed to go up driveways period unless there is a hardship delivery OR the delivery point is the front door. Look it up. We cannot deviate from our routes and a driveway is a deviation. I was shocked finding this out. This also applies to apartment front doors, too, apparently from my research.

Yeah, you're going to have to show written proof of that, been doing it the right way for over 30 years. What about our po603 saying if you can't attract a customer to the box you have to deliver to the door, and what about Accountables?

 

[Rural-life-0323]

Yeah, you're going to have to show written proof of that, been doing it the right way for over 30 years. What about our po603 saying if you can't attract a customer to the box you have to deliver to the door, and what about Accountables?

I already did in another thread. You can't use a driveway if it requires you to back up. It's not part of the line of travel so you're deviating to do so. You park, if possible, and walk to the door if it's less than 1/2 a mile one way. I swore an oath. It's the real way to do it.

And yes you honk to get there attention. Actually what the DMM 508 section says (not PO 603) is that you CANNOT leave a package at the door UNLESS you have written permission to do so OR they answer the door OR it says "Carrier - Leave if no response" on the label. Otherwise you leave a 3849 and hold it, per the strict language.

Practice and policy are not the same. No one I've talked to knew about that DMM stuff, but that is the actual policy.

 

[Rt2mailman]

PO 603
331.2 Oversized Parcels
331.21 Attract Customer to Box
If a parcel is too large for the box, make a reasonable effort to attract the
customer to the box to receive the parcel. Do this by sounding the horn or by
hailing the customer. If unsuccessful, you must deliver parcels to any
residence or business that is on the line of travel, or within one-half mile of
the route and has a passable road leading to it. You are required to dismount
to effect delivery if there is no response to your efforts to have the customer
come to the vehicle, or if the customer requests that you do so. In
Carrier Performance on Route 332.12
September 2013 77
multi-tenant buildings, make every effort to deliver parcels to customers
using existing building notification procedures.
Please explain this away.

 

[Rural-life-0323]

Not sure which part needs explanation.

DMM 508 2.2.3 Parcel Delivery
An ordinary parcel too large to fit into a customer’s mailbox is not left unless the customer has filed a written order with the postmaster relieving the USPS and carriers of all responsibility in case of loss or depredation of any such parcel left outside the box.

DMM 508 1.2 Carrier Release Endorsement for Parcels
The carrier release endorsement “CARRIER—LEAVE IF NO RESPONSE” instructs carriers to leave the parcel if no one is available to accept the parcel or when the addressee has filed a written order to allow a carrier to leave the parcel. A parcel may be left in an unprotected location, such as a stairway or uncovered porch, only when it bears the “CARRIER—LEAVE IF NO RESPONSE” endorsement. The endorsement must appear directly to the left of the postage area (preferred) or directly below the return address as specified in 102.4.1 and 202.4.3.

You already noted that we "are required to dismount"

Basically if you leave a parcel without a local policy or the authorized reasons you're in violation of policy and if it's stolen this is why USPS has to pay the claims since we are not authorized to leave the parcels in some cases. BTW this is why Amazon and UPS puts "Carrier - Leave if no response" on the packages. If they want us to leave them and not give them back, they have to do this by policy.

The word driveway doesn't exist in either PO 603 or DMM and the RRECS Q&A refers to them as "out of route"

287. Is our EMA changing with RRECS? Are we going to be paid our actual mileage from scanner (going up driveways, etc.) or the same mileage from 4003?
A. There is no change to EMA under RRECS. It will still be based on the official route mileage. The ‘out of route’ driving up driveways etc. is not included in EMA. “Our of Route” (OOR) driving only affects the driving time compensable under RRECS.

Hope that explains things better.

 

[DohnJalton]

You cant drive up driveways.
You cant drive up driveways that require you to back up.
You can drive down driveways but you dont get compensated for it.

What is the next goal post going to be?

You cant drive up a driveway if it is a full moon and after winter solstice, UNLESS it is on a odd day of the week, then you can drive up the driveway, but you have to be wearing red or blue.

 

[FrozenToes]

Not sure which part needs explanation.

DMM 508 2.2.3 Parcel Delivery
An ordinary parcel too large to fit into a customer’s mailbox is not left unless the customer has filed a written order with the postmaster relieving the USPS and carriers of all responsibility in case of loss or depredation of any such parcel left outside the box.

DMM 508 1.2 Carrier Release Endorsement for Parcels
The carrier release endorsement “CARRIER—LEAVE IF NO RESPONSE” instructs carriers to leave the parcel if no one is available to accept the parcel or when the addressee has filed a written order to allow a carrier to leave the parcel. A parcel may be left in an unprotected location, such as a stairway or uncovered porch, only when it bears the “CARRIER—LEAVE IF NO RESPONSE” endorsement. The endorsement must appear directly to the left of the postage area (preferred) or directly below the return address as specified in 102.4.1 and 202.4.3.

You already noted that we "are required to dismount"

Basically if you leave a parcel without a local policy or the authorized reasons you're in violation of policy and if it's stolen this is why USPS has to pay the claims since we are not authorized to leave the parcels in some cases. BTW this is why Amazon and UPS puts "Carrier - Leave if no response" on the packages. If they want us to leave them and not give them back, they have to do this by policy.

The word driveway doesn't exist in either PO 603 or DMM and the RRECS Q&A refers to them as "out of route"

287. Is our EMA changing with RRECS? Are we going to be paid our actual mileage from scanner (going up driveways, etc.) or the same mileage from 4003?
A. There is no change to EMA under RRECS. It will still be based on the official route mileage. The ‘out of route’ driving up driveways etc. is not included in EMA. “Our of Route” (OOR) driving only affects the driving time compensable under RRECS.

Hope that explains things better.

Read the P.O.603 again. It states " passable road". Look up the definition of passable road.
So did you have everyone of your customers fill out a PS form 4232 ?

 

[Rt2mailman]

I believe the DMM 508 2.2.3 is referring to leaving parcels outside but "at box" as was commonly done 30 years ago. To do that now, we must have the form 4232 stating that we can. Without that form parcels must be left "at door", as our scanner gives us that as one of the choices.
True, that nowhere does it say that we MUST drive to that door up to 1/2 of a mile from the route, but that we must deliver. You go ahead and walk it, the rest of us will drive, as the Rrecs time paid to deliver parcels to the door is based on drive time from box to parking place near door to enable dismount and door delivery.
I just imagine what your 2080/2240 time must be if you have a real "Rural" route and walk to all of those doors upto 1/2 mile from their boxes.

 

[Rural-life-0323]

What is the next goal post going to be?

You cant drive up a driveway if it is a full moon and after winter solstice, UNLESS it is on a odd day of the week, then you can drive up the driveway, but you have to be wearing red or blue.

I'm not sure what you mean. I'm not moving any goal posts

I'm saying you aren't allowed to use driveways at all unless the delivery point is the front door as in cases of hardships (but only if there is a clear and safe way to turn around).

Not only are you leaving the routes line of travel but in most cases you could be causing an unsafe act if backing in or out is an issue. You're also on private property at that point so, as one of our carriers found out, you can be personally sued for damages you cause since you're in violation of the policy.

Listen, I think it's complete BS because my route has apartments and my interpretation of the strict policy means I'm deviating from my authorized line of travel to get to peoples door in the complex, myself.

I'm not saying I agree. I was told I didn't know the policy and so I laid it out in copy and paste, black and white text.

I'm also curious where you quoted me on that from? Did you edit my words to make your point? I never said that?

 

[Rural-life-0323]

Read the P.O.603 again. It states " passable road". Look up the definition of passable road.
So did you have everyone of your customers fill out a PS form 4232 ?

A private driveway that requires backing up to enter or exit is not a passable road. Period.

I have apartments so it's not an issue for me, but the way I read this is I'm technically deviating from route when I go to doors however as you pointed out why I believe I'm fine. The apartments have passable roads.

Oh and yes I have a TON of 4232's filled out being the nature of apartments and people moving in and out.

 

[Rural-life-0323]

I believe the DMM 508 2.2.3 is referring to leaving parcels outside but "at box" as was commonly done 30 years ago. To do that now, we must have the form 4232 stating that we can. Without that form parcels must be left "at door", as our scanner gives us that as one of the choices.
True, that nowhere does it say that we MUST drive to that door up to 1/2 of a mile from the route, but that we must deliver. You go ahead and walk it, the rest of us will drive, as the Rrecs time paid to deliver parcels to the door is based on drive time from box to parking place near door to enable dismount and door delivery.
I just imagine what your 2080/2240 time must be if you have a real "Rural" route and walk to all of those doors upto 1/2 mile from their boxes.

No. I have all apartments. Not an issue for me except for one location. I mapped the proper distances so I'm getting paid in that case.

The problem you all have going up driveways is where are you mapped for the park point? If you don't make the park point where you actually park good luck if they go after you for falsifying records. You're also losing a TON of money NOT following the policy. I map and park in the proper and legal places and my route is the only one going UP every survey (growth helps too) in my office.

And that is 30 year and a today policy that most people ignore. The parcel cannot be left at the door in the ways I described, per the policy. The local PM can make a local policy that you leave everything however if you get in trouble for leaving a 3849 keep this info in your back pocket. They CANNOT write you up for not leaving the package if you can't by policy. They can only write you up for insubordination and that could be tossed out by the union since you are NOT in violation of any actual policy.

I'm laying out ways to not go to doors in some cases and you all want to challenge copy and paste policy with me. Geez. I don't agree with it either, but what I'm saying is fact.

BTW no 2080 issue and I've taken this route from an H route to an overburdened 48K in a couple years. Growth helped but the route is paid right without that and was growing before the growth factored in.

 

[FrozenToes]

A private driveway that requires backing up to enter or exit is not a passable road. Period.

I have apartments so it's not an issue for me, but the way I read this is I'm technically deviating from route when I go to doors however as you pointed out why I believe I'm fine. The apartments have passable roads.

Oh and yes I have a TON of 4232's filled out being the nature of apartments and people moving in and out.

Carriers can complete delivery on passable roads. Not all roads are passable. Not all delivery points ( for parcels) have a safe way for carriers to turnaround. Those points would not receive parcel delivery. So I think we are essentially saying the same thing.
Matter of fact, I told a carrier this week ,not to deliver, if he couldn't safely turn around.

 

[Rt2mailman]

No. I have all apartments. Not an issue for me except for one location. I mapped the proper distances so I'm getting paid in that case.

The problem you all have going up driveways is where are you mapped for the park point? If you don't make the park point where you actually park good luck if they go after you for falsifying records. You're also losing a TON of money NOT following the policy. I map and park in the proper and legal places and my route is the only one going UP every survey (growth helps too) in my office.

And that is 30 year and a today policy that most people ignore. The parcel cannot be left at the door in the ways I described, per the policy. The local PM can make a local policy that you leave everything however if you get in trouble for leaving a 3849 keep this info in your back pocket. They CANNOT write you up for not leaving the package if you can't by policy. They can only write you up for insubordination and that could be tossed out by the union since you are NOT in violation of any actual policy.

I'm laying out ways to not go to doors in some cases and you all want to challenge copy and paste policy with me. Geez. I don't agree with it either, but what I'm saying is fact.

BTW no 2080 issue and I've taken this route from an H route to an overburdened 48K in a couple years. Growth helped but the route is paid right without that and was growing before the growth factored in.

If you delivered on a real rural route, there is no way you would walk up the driveways to deliver. There is also NO WAY you would leave notice for all your parcels that had longer driveways because it would ruin your route evaluation. With Rrecs, why would any carrier want to "get out of" delivering parcels? That's where our $ currently is. Not quoting anyone, just showing quotations for a saying.

 

[Rural-life-0323]

Carriers can complete delivery on passable roads. Not all roads are passable. Not all delivery points ( for parcels) have a safe way for carriers to turnaround. Those points would not receive parcel delivery. So I think we are essentially saying the same thing.
Matter of fact, I told a carrier this week ,not to deliver, if he couldn't safely turn around.

Basically the same thing. I still think it's a bad idea though.

I look at it like "looking both ways before crossing the road." I'm pretty sure that's not written in the PO 603 or DMM, but it's a dumb thing to not do. Once you're on their property there are a host of problems that can arise because you are not following the policy.

So is not curbing your wheels but carriers do it all day long, so to each their own.

 

[Rural-life-0323]

If you delivered on a real rural route, there is no way you would walk up the driveways to deliver. There is also NO WAY you would leave notice for all your parcels that had longer driveways because it would ruin your route evaluation. With Rrecs, why would any carrier want to "get out of" delivering parcels? That's where our $ currently is. Not quoting anyone, just showing quotations for a saying.

Yeah but if you drive up the driveway you're losing all that walking distance, too if you map correctly OR you're mapping to the street and driving in to the shorter point which would cause a lot of problems if someones caught. My district looks at EVERYTHING.

I'm not saying stop delivering all parcels, but if it's the day after a holiday and you're really far behind, it's good to know what the actual policy says to protect yourself. I think we can agree there.

And yeah I'm not on a "real" rural route but it's a huge route. I get my steps in at my apartments for sure. No distance paid for third floors is complete BS. I also don't seen where the policy forbids me from driving up the stairs.

 

[Rt2mailman]

You can run full out on any footage that you are credited and not achieve the paid amount of "Walk" time. Walking extra will take extra time, that's mostly UNPAID time. We get paid very little for walk time.
"We" do not agree that any carrier should want to not deliver parcels the day after a holiday. In our office our manager was having our Ups/Usps parcels delivered on the holidays, we grieved it and won because all parcels delivered on holidays or Sundays provide NO credit to any route, as they should be credited.
The po603/Dmm does say that you "can't drive upstairs", it is actually against many laws that both say we carriers are supposed to follow.
I look everyday and every way to help my route gain evaluation, trying to find ways to get out of work/pay is unimaginable to me. I work for money, not to get off early. Walking the driveways on my route would be very unsafe. That would put me up to 1/2 mile away from my vehicle, exposing me to a dog attack or just being shot by one of my customers for wandering around on their property.

 

[Rural-life-0323]

You can run full out on any footage that you are credited and not achieve the paid amount of "Walk" time. Walking extra will take extra time, that's mostly UNPAID time. We get paid very little for walk time.
"We" do not agree that any carrier should want to not deliver parcels the day after a holiday. In our office our manager was having our Ups/Usps parcels delivered on the holidays, we grieved it and won because all parcels delivered on holidays or Sundays provide NO credit to any route, as they should be credited.
The po603/Dmm does say that you "can't drive upstairs", it is actually against many laws that both say we carriers are supposed to follow.
I look everyday and every way to help my route gain evaluation, trying to find ways to get out of work/pay is unimaginable to me. I work for money, not to get off early. Walking the driveways on my route would be very unsafe. That would put me up to 1/2 mile away from my vehicle, exposing me to a dog attack or just being shot by one of my customers for wandering around on their property.

Come on, grasp the sarcasm or we can't play together. I didn't literally mean drive upstairs. I'm my part of the country we call that a joke.

For one I said the day after a holiday. Not the holiday and yes that was a good grievance to file.

You'd still get paid to leave a 3849 and not go, just not as much as going to the door and apparently risking your life.

Also, if dogs and getting shot are a real threat DON'T DELIEVER period. Especially if the package falls in the reasons to no deliver them to the door! Are you really telling everyone that it's more important to add the $1 to the day to take it to the door when you risk dogs and being shot? Really!

Please tell me I also misunderstood your sarcasm there. That being said you support my argument about laws and policies to if you decide to drive up the driveway go for it. Just know that you're opening a different can of worms when you do. Be safe out there.

The other crazy part relating to this. BOTH the DMM and PO 603 only mentions stairway in what I quoted. Simply as a possible location to leave a package that won't fit IF it fits the criteria it lays out. Nowhere don't it say we can or can't use a driveway and no where does it specifically say we can or cannot use a stairway, which was the subject of my joke.

You need to consult your local laws on trespassing. "Carrier-leave if no response" markings or the 4232/written permission would give the "implied consent" needed to enter private property to avoid trespassing charges. Anything else would be up to a judge as to whether there was implied consent to trespass on private property. I would never drive into the fenced in gate of a business because it's open simply because I have a package and claim I have permission to violate trespassing laws on their private property. The laws would be the same here, too.

Again this doesn't affect my route in any way so I don't care. As always, do what you want and fight it later, I guess, and hope you keep getting lucky. Again I've already seen this issue happen to a carrier in our office first hand. Good luck.

 

[Rt2mailman]

There is no decent steward that couldn't have gotten your coworkers out of any discipline for delivery to the door. If he had an accident, that alone would have been the reason for discipline, but not because he delivered to the door. I would have to see the discipline letter to actually believe discipline was issued for door delivery alone, unless a direct order to not deliver to that door was given.

 

[U caught my attention]

There was a resolution passed at the 2024 Reno convention that attempted to fix this issue. Page 140 of the official proceedings. Resolution 302.
The resolution came about because We were continually being ordered by management to not enter driveways to deliver packages. The resolution tried to update language to merge rrecs mapped parkpoint location with the language from the po603.
Not sure it accomplished that intent. If it needs better language than what was put forth then, do another resolution to reflect current performance. I am certain the USPS wants our service to reflect how our competitors also deliver competitive product. This situation needs updated to reflect modern performance standards brought about by dpm and rrecs time standards.

 

[Rural-life-0323]

There is no decent steward that couldn't have gotten your coworkers out of any discipline for delivery to the door. If he had an accident, that alone would have been the reason for discipline, but not because he delivered to the door. I would have to see the discipline letter to actually believe discipline was issued for door delivery alone, unless a direct order to not deliver to that door was given.

You don't need to see it. What if I said no mailbox and no mail service and still drove onto the private property and got into an accident?

If you knew the history of this mail person you would say two things. 1) Damn the union is amazing at keeping people and/or 2) Damn this is why a union is a problem. Sadly this person will someday hit and injure or kill someone before they are removed. There isn't one person in the office who understands why they are still working at USPS other than the union, so that makes this an bad example.

They were disciplined for the accident due to history. The house in question was a retired higher up from USPS who knew the carrier was 1000% wrong, but decided to drop the matter if they never go onto their property again. Even after installing a mailbox. We had stand ups for months explaining why we are not allowed to drive on private property and the union agreed that is what the policy says.

I'm actually curious if you can cite what you've mentioned about distances running out. I can't find that in the documentation. Where would I find that because if that's true it may change things at a stop of mine. If I'm only paid so far then I'm not going to the doors anymore and it's 3849 time and pissing people off until something changes.

 

[Rural-life-0323]

There was a resolution passed at the 2024 Reno convention that attempted to fix this issue. Page 140 of the official proceedings. Resolution 302.
The resolution came about because We were continually being ordered by management to not enter driveways to deliver packages. The resolution tried to update language to merge rrecs mapped parkpoint location with the language from the po603.
Not sure it accomplished that intent. If it needs better language than what was put forth then, do another resolution to reflect current performance. I am certain the USPS wants our service to reflect how our competitors also deliver competitive product. This situation needs updated to reflect modern performance standards brought about by dpm and rrecs time standards.

Thank you! I'm going to dive deeper into these.

The odd thing though is this addresses carriers going to the mapped park point. My question would be can a mapped park point be on private property?

When I took over my route the mapped park points were to fire lanes and blocking people's driveways. Since this is illegal I changed them (which increased my footage and pay). The language in 302 doesn't address that issue specifically but I'm going to dive deeper in the the resolutions. We still must follow the laws and private property laws vary from city to city.