LTM question
- Thread starter magnolia72
- Start date
U caught my attention
Well-known member
We arent trespassing but there is liability.
When I was told to not go up driveways it was explained as a liability issue.
I couldnt find anything that said to utilize driveway. I then thought about the mapped park points we plotted and thought that they are technically the link between being at the box and the next step toward door delivery.
(Correct me if I am wrong) There is no language currently protecting our use of driveways. That is how I am undrrstanding the point @Rural-life-0323 is trying to make.
When I was told to not go up driveways it was explained as a liability issue.
I couldnt find anything that said to utilize driveway. I then thought about the mapped park points we plotted and thought that they are technically the link between being at the box and the next step toward door delivery.
(Correct me if I am wrong) There is no language currently protecting our use of driveways. That is how I am undrrstanding the point @Rural-life-0323 is trying to make.
there is no liability.
there is implied consent.
the customer orders a package and expects delivery to his house. it is universally understood that a courier (whether is it us, UPS, FEDEX, DHL, whoever) is going to have to get up the customer's driveway somehow.
in all the years i have doing this job, someone accusing me or any of the carriers i know (there are many, many, many) of trespassing is exactly zero.
just do the job. if you don't think it's safe to go up a drive, then don't.
just be prepared for the fallout.
U caught my attention
Well-known member
Yes, we generally make the call when we are out there to go up or not.
We had a stand up one day that included the direct order
"No driving up driveways."
Imagine what that direct order means to your own route.
They even posted a sign in the office.
No driving up driveways
What language would you use to counter that directive?
I dove into many rabbit holes to try and find language and I have not been able to find any. As far as I can tell,
we have 3849, 4232, and our own two feet.
Would the PO want us to not deliver to the door like the other delivery companys? Maybe push folks to put in their own parcel container nearer the end of their drive? IDK...after a conversation with PM the direct order was lifted but it exposed a vulnerability to our performance and time standards associated with door delivery.
they are trying to benchmark and reduce our routes any way that they can.
it is up to us to stop them from violating our contract, to include ALL RRECs guidelines.
i sure hope that you reported this to national.
just like an out of office steward (if you don't have a local) doesn't know what's going on in your office because he/she is not present, neither does national know what's actually going on in the field unless it is reported to them.
U caught my attention
Well-known member
Yes the union was made aware.
A resolution was made in an attempt to point out the issue and find a remedy.
Edited to say it wasn't just my office. At state convention I found out there were other offices in the area that got the same order.
Last edited:
Rt2mailman
Well-known member
I can understand a manager saying don't drive up a driveway if the house is 40-50 feet from the road, because there is more risk pulling in an backing out than walking the parcel in. If the parcel is big and or heavy, backing in is still the safer option. However, as has been posted up above, homes that are up to 1/2 mile from the route would be unsafe to walk to the door. Read our PO 603 carefully. It doesn’t state that we cannot deliver beyond 1/2 mile, only that a carrier cannot be required to deliver parcels beyond 1/2 mile from the line of travel.
Many routes around the US deliver on private roads to several homes. All those homes would be concidered on private driveways, as would be the apartment house mentioned about. No carrier in their right mind would park outside that private roadway and walk the last 3 miles in. From the get go that suggestion is ridiculous and unfounded in any USPS manual and or contracts.
Many routes around the US deliver on private roads to several homes. All those homes would be concidered on private driveways, as would be the apartment house mentioned about. No carrier in their right mind would park outside that private roadway and walk the last 3 miles in. From the get go that suggestion is ridiculous and unfounded in any USPS manual and or contracts.
Last edited:
Rural-life-0323
Active member
Park in the middle of a busy road and block traffic everyday. When the cops show up to ticket you, tell them you're the feds and let us all know how that goes.
we are federal employees. that trumps your city/state.
we are not trespassing when delivering packages.
it is so simple even a caveman could understand it.
USPS CLEARLY states that we have to follow the laws not just on the job but off the job, too.
The odds of someone getting in trouble for going on a driveway are slim unless management knows the policy, BUT that does not mean we have a right to break local city/state laws. Just because you or other people get away with it doesn't mean it's right or allowed.
There's MAJOR DIFFERENCE BETWEEN blocking traffic and going down a driveway. You need to give up your fight.
So explain to why UPS, Fedex, Amazon, DHL, and others do then??????? I guess they need to leave packages at end of driveway according to these logic.
Rural-life-0323
Active member
Will 99.9% of carriers get in trouble. NO, however as you pointed out, what I'm saying is there is NOTHING in the policy allowing us to go on a driveway because policy can't conflict with local laws. We are not immune from local laws and violations. What if the door I'm going to is open and I decide to walk inside their house and put the package on their kitchen table? Why would be OK since private property laws seem to not impact us (if you believe others)?
That being said it is liability and it is trespassing IF you don't not have written permission or a Carrier- Leave if no response notation on the package. Would a cop stop you? No. If a home owner shot you and argued there was not implied consent because they never gave us permission or noted that the package could be left at the door, would the get away with it. Possibly.
But yes if you get into an accident on their property in a vehicle the home owner could go after you personally since you are not in compliance with USPS policy or the local laws.
Again will 99.9% get in trouble. Probably not. As I've stated before, practice and policy are often VERY different at USPS. @oi veh. is showing why I tell new people all the time not to listen to everything they hear, from others, as gospel. Look things up when it doesn't sound right. I have had management and EVEN union reps steer me wrong MANY times, in the past.
Rural-life-0323
Active member
According to oi veh we're immune from the laws because we're federal so NO there is no difference based on that argument.
I've looked it up before and I've asked their drivers directly many times if their policy allows them to park on the wrong side of the road, in red zones or in driveways and every one of the has told me NO. It violates their policies too, but they rarely ever get caught.
There is a 4 way stop sign intersection on my route and 90% of people never make complete stops at the stop sign. Wanna bet I'm not excluded from the law just because everyone else does it?
BTW Curtilage is the answer. That's what gives them the right BUT if they do something that is NOT a part of the delivery or act negligently they can be held personally accountable. And before people say this apply to USPS too, yes however ONLY if the parcels follows what I've already noted that the policy says. Written permission, C-LINR, authorized hardship or signature needed. Otherwise you are trespassing.
U caught my attention -- "When I was told to not go up driveways it was explained as a liability issue.
I couldn't find anything that said to utilize driveway."
-- Late in 1991, there was a MEMORANDUM FOR FIELD DIVISION GENERAL MANAGERS/POSTMASTERS MSC MANAGERS/POSTMASTERS put out by the USPS' Allen Kane - Assistant Postmaster General - Transportation Department with the Subject: Delivery of Parcels to the Door -- Rural Carriers.
- Beginning November 2, rural letter carriers were required to attempt delivery of ordinary parcels to the customers' door if the parcel was too large for the mail receptacle and the residence was located within one-half mile of the carriers' line of travel with a passable road leading to it.
- Rural carriers can still sound their horn and attempt of attract the customer to the mail receptacle to receive their parcel. However, in the event the customer does not come to the box, the carrier IS REQUIRED to go up to one-half mile on a passable road or drive to the customer's business OR RESIDENCE, dismount, and knock on the customer's door to attempt delivery.
-- Politely ask manglement if they have the Kane memorandum in their files.
-- Or if a driveway is considered a "passable road".
I couldn't find anything that said to utilize driveway."
-- Late in 1991, there was a MEMORANDUM FOR FIELD DIVISION GENERAL MANAGERS/POSTMASTERS MSC MANAGERS/POSTMASTERS put out by the USPS' Allen Kane - Assistant Postmaster General - Transportation Department with the Subject: Delivery of Parcels to the Door -- Rural Carriers.
- Beginning November 2, rural letter carriers were required to attempt delivery of ordinary parcels to the customers' door if the parcel was too large for the mail receptacle and the residence was located within one-half mile of the carriers' line of travel with a passable road leading to it.
- Rural carriers can still sound their horn and attempt of attract the customer to the mail receptacle to receive their parcel. However, in the event the customer does not come to the box, the carrier IS REQUIRED to go up to one-half mile on a passable road or drive to the customer's business OR RESIDENCE, dismount, and knock on the customer's door to attempt delivery.
-- Politely ask manglement if they have the Kane memorandum in their files.
-- Or if a driveway is considered a "passable road".
DohnJalton
Well-known member
This guy is a complete 
Rt2mailman
Well-known member
Once again, Rural life, if you truly believe in this "Rule" you're suggesting, you would be parking outside of the apartment complex that you deliver to and walking in, because that too is a "Private" driveway. We all know you don't/won't do this, because it would be ridiculous.Therefore if it is ok for 99.9 % of carriers, including yourself, why fight so hard to prove a rule exists that NOBODY follows, including yourself?
U caught my attention
Well-known member
Lets fast forward to current day.
Here is the ultimate confusion for me.
My understanding of Rrecs came from reading The Guide. I read it and my performance changed to incorporate new methodology if and where needed. I did this change, because I wanted my actions to properly credit the route. On page 9 of The Guide it states
3. The standard methods will satisfy all USPS
policies and safety requirements.
Back when I first read The Guide, I assumed it was citable language.
When I read page 70 about parcel delivery credits. I assumed the mapped park point was as written.....the DDD Direct Door delivery)
THIS MEANT Parcel delivery was meant for door. The next step after servicing box is to go to the mapped park point (DDD) This seemed clear and straightforward. Here is The Guide info I am referring
A. Driving Time is determined by S0033 (Driving Speed‐mail stop to DDD stop). The
Drive Speed Matrix is applied to the average distance measured in a straight line
from the Mail Stop location to the Direct Door Delivery (DDD) parking location. If
the Mail Stop and DDD are the same, then this distance is zero for that address.
This time is applied to all large parcel stops averaged over 52‐weeks. Only one
drive time is credited per address, regardless of the number of parcels.
B. Walking Time is determined by S0034 (Walking Speed‐DDD to Door). The
distance is measured in a straight line from the DDD to the Door location where
the parcel is delivered. This walking distance is credited at 0.00429 minutes per
foot (233 feet per minute) for each large parcel trip and averaged over 52 weeks.
The carrier will be able to indicate an additional trip(s) and walking time will be
multiplied when more than one trip from vehicle to the door is required.
C. The next time credit for large parcels is S047 (Prelim & concluding at vehicle ...
The usps and the union developed Rrecs with engineers. SO WHY does our understanding of this system not include a collaberative understanding from both parties? Why does written policy not incorporate current practice? I am at a loss at how to perform certain functions because I have contradictory language.
I am currently having issues with postage due. The same situation is occuring, what is explained in The Guide contradicts how my PM asked us to handle them. Do I.fight for the po603 langiahe or rrecs language? I again have zero colaborative language from the parties on the issue at hand, except the 603. I also have zero help from my coworkers that have unknowingly collectively agreed with management that postage dues are a clerk function.
So What is a carrier to do?
Here is the ultimate confusion for me.
My understanding of Rrecs came from reading The Guide. I read it and my performance changed to incorporate new methodology if and where needed. I did this change, because I wanted my actions to properly credit the route. On page 9 of The Guide it states
3. The standard methods will satisfy all USPS
policies and safety requirements.
Back when I first read The Guide, I assumed it was citable language.
When I read page 70 about parcel delivery credits. I assumed the mapped park point was as written.....the DDD Direct Door delivery)
THIS MEANT Parcel delivery was meant for door. The next step after servicing box is to go to the mapped park point (DDD) This seemed clear and straightforward. Here is The Guide info I am referring
A. Driving Time is determined by S0033 (Driving Speed‐mail stop to DDD stop). The
Drive Speed Matrix is applied to the average distance measured in a straight line
from the Mail Stop location to the Direct Door Delivery (DDD) parking location. If
the Mail Stop and DDD are the same, then this distance is zero for that address.
This time is applied to all large parcel stops averaged over 52‐weeks. Only one
drive time is credited per address, regardless of the number of parcels.
B. Walking Time is determined by S0034 (Walking Speed‐DDD to Door). The
distance is measured in a straight line from the DDD to the Door location where
the parcel is delivered. This walking distance is credited at 0.00429 minutes per
foot (233 feet per minute) for each large parcel trip and averaged over 52 weeks.
The carrier will be able to indicate an additional trip(s) and walking time will be
multiplied when more than one trip from vehicle to the door is required.
C. The next time credit for large parcels is S047 (Prelim & concluding at vehicle ...
The usps and the union developed Rrecs with engineers. SO WHY does our understanding of this system not include a collaberative understanding from both parties? Why does written policy not incorporate current practice? I am at a loss at how to perform certain functions because I have contradictory language.
I am currently having issues with postage due. The same situation is occuring, what is explained in The Guide contradicts how my PM asked us to handle them. Do I.fight for the po603 langiahe or rrecs language? I again have zero colaborative language from the parties on the issue at hand, except the 603. I also have zero help from my coworkers that have unknowingly collectively agreed with management that postage dues are a clerk function.
So What is a carrier to do?
Rt2mailman
Well-known member
Postage dues are to be written up with a notice left, unless they are parcel size. Those are to be taken to the door like an accountable. If no one is available, or aren't able to pay, a notice is left. Carriers can pay for postage dues and leave a brown envelope to be paid back for the amount paid, I scan in all postage due when I pay and pick up their payment.
@U caught my attention - go by the PO-603. the guide is breaking everything down.
clerks are to write the amount due (if it hasn't been done at the plant) on the parcel or letter.
we are to write up the 3849 and the 4245 (brown envelope) in the morning at our case. then follow @Rt2mailman's post for delivery - that's straight out of the PO-603.
we take credit for the attempted delivery and also the delivery of the postage due, in addition to any scans on parcel.
if your PM is trying to take this credit away from you, file the grievance. there's a couple i can see - cross craft and attempting to influence a count.
clerks are to write the amount due (if it hasn't been done at the plant) on the parcel or letter.
we are to write up the 3849 and the 4245 (brown envelope) in the morning at our case. then follow @Rt2mailman's post for delivery - that's straight out of the PO-603.
we take credit for the attempted delivery and also the delivery of the postage due, in addition to any scans on parcel.
if your PM is trying to take this credit away from you, file the grievance. there's a couple i can see - cross craft and attempting to influence a count.
