Are we getting paid?

gerl2

Well-known member
BigGreenie-----------Let your local management know that during your vehicle inspection in the morning, you found "something" and it "appears" that someone has tampered with the LLV and you are going to call the inspection service.
Lol you might be calling the ones who placed it? or could they be placing mini cams as they have done to school buses?
 

Jmdw52

Active member
Ya know.... I always felt like this whole idea of taking scanners to the door issue to be questionable... yes, you want the exact gps position of the package... BUT... if I scan at box, leaving scanner in car, then put left on porch... and then take package to porch... well... I told them where it is, they know what house because I scanned at the address... and they do know how long the delivery took because they can see how long I was stationary.... I’ll do what they want me to, but seriously... if they can’t figure this out....

Just another example of how they can collect 50 versions of the same information and still not get things right!
 

Havenowgone

Well-known member
Ya know.... I always felt like this whole idea of taking scanners to the door issue to be questionable... yes, you want the exact gps position of the package... BUT... if I scan at box, leaving scanner in car, then put left on porch... and then take package to porch... well... I told them where it is, they know what house because I scanned at the address... and they do know how long the delivery took because they can see how long I was stationary.... I’ll do what they want me to, but seriously... if they can’t figure this out....

Just another example of how they can collect 50 versions of the same information and still not get things right!
A scan at the point of delivery is proof that you actually went to the door. What I don't understand is why carriers continue to reason why they don't have to take the scanner with them. You said that you are, so why even wonder, just do it. I did it while I was in the study so all carriers could benefit from getting the right times for the things we do. After a while it just becomes common practice and is no big deal. They want to have annual figures before they implement RRECS, so I would assume that what you are doing right now may be part of your annual figuring and you will be happy you followed rules. If you were the employer wouldn't you want proof of where the article was left (and not just take the word of your employee) for not only pay purposes but for tracking things for customers?
 

PastOThirty

Well-known member
The primary reason not to take the scammer to the door is safety and ergonomics. It is less risk, and less wear and tear on my body trying to finagle 18 different things to shuffle it all to the door, set it all down, shuffle it all some more to scan the 16 different packages, and then now ring the bell to get a signature or fill out a slip for the one overseas item. And it is 15 below zero, and the scanner operation is terrible with gloves on.

That is why I don't like to, but, I am confident the consequence of not will be a drastic shortfall in credit for work performed, and thus eventual pay. This job is all about eventualities. Eventually, you will have an hour worth of new boxes. Eventually, the edit sheets and 4003 will be updated to reflect that. Eventually you will get an official mileage check. Eventually we will get new time standards. Eventually we will have a full complement of subs. Eventually everyone will want to do this job for minimum wage (or less when they suffer the evaluated system and work for free for several hours a week).
 

Windindaface

Well-known member
No we are not getting paid to beat feet to the door at this moment.

Many people have not taken the time to look at the RRECS time allowances even if it does not come to fruition but I think it will. Yes we are getting stung on some daily tasks with it. The one place we gained some considerable time is parcels. The Machine is naturally taking action against the results with DIM for these items with a rate increase.

If RRECS enters our lives, and you are not scanning at point of location placement. You will be short changing yourself of money owed to you. My understanding of RRECS we will be credited a time of 51 sec per item of office time for large parcels and 23 secs per item for medium and small items. What the dimensions of large to small is unknown. But under RRECS we will be credited another 19 sec per item to drop at door along with along with .00429 sec per foot to get there. This footage to the door is to be determined by route plotting or your present actions from scanner data. So If you don't care about the footage to the door go ahead and leave scanner in ride.

A 250 feet round trip to door footage credit works out to be a little over a minute of time. Multiply that by your present average daily door drop dismounts. Now you are looking at some serious time impact on the routes EVAL and your pay.
 
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Havenowgone

Well-known member
The primary reason not to take the scammer to the door is safety and ergonomics. It is less risk, and less wear and tear on my body trying to finagle 18 different things to shuffle it all to the door, set it all down, shuffle it all some more to scan the 16 different packages, and then now ring the bell to get a signature or fill out a slip for the one overseas item. And it is 15 below zero, and the scanner operation is terrible with gloves on.

That is why I don't like to, but, I am confident the consequence of not will be a drastic shortfall in credit for work performed, and thus eventual pay. This job is all about eventualities. Eventually, you will have an hour worth of new boxes. Eventually, the edit sheets and 4003 will be updated to reflect that. Eventually you will get an official mileage check. Eventually we will get new time standards. Eventually we will have a full complement of subs. Eventually everyone will want to do this job for minimum wage (or less when they suffer the evaluated system and work for free for several hours a week).
I'm sure you are explaining a worst case scenario. I too delivered in freezing temperatures in one of the heaviest snow areas in the country and had boatloads of parcels to deliver as our office was one of the first for everything...DPS, FSS and Amazon. Slip the scanner strap around your wrist and it becomes part of your body. In the winter I put it in my coat pocket. Rural carriers are masters of coming up ideas to make the job easier while following the rules. It was NOT unsafe to carry the scanner. I also did all of this with gloves on during the winter. Like I have said, carriers will come up with all kinds of excuses and ideas of why not to carry the scanner. You seem determined to not worry about things that may eventually happen so I hope it doesn't affect you negatively when it does happen. I'm not looking for pats on the back but I find it disturbing that I did everything like it was supposed to be done for the study, that my route was part of, only to find those that could benefit from my actions to not give a darn.
 
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Jmdw52

Active member
I know you guys are speaking of the here and now.... the thing I wanted to point out is that the data has been there.... they know what we do, how long it takes, etc.... how old is the post office? 1792? Ok.... so after 227 years we need more accuracy?

It takes a team of engineers to develop a system (RRECS) that isn’t even operational after four years, yet all the years of mail counts, the thousands of employees (demonstrating ability), timesheet data, gps data, data from city side deliveries... all this isn’t enough?

It doesn’t take an engineer to do simple arithmetic.... that’s all an honest count is.

Honesty is what it comes down to... it’s simply unimaginable to think that there aren’t any PO beancounters who know exactly what we are doing... they did have like 200+ years to figure it out.

Management can’t do honest... if they did... it’d be their jobs on the line to save money... not ours.... we do the work here...
 

neciat

Well-known member
The first thing these engineers did BEFORE any one of them even set their first foot into a postal facility was this : they took the two weeks we get counted and divided it by the 52 weeks in a year and came up with .0384. I'll call that 4%. Then they said, "you're basing 100% of these peeps' pay on what happens 4% of the time ? This makes the system 96% in the Postal Service favor or 96% AGAINST these peeps." Even with a three week count it is .0576 which I'll call 6% and it's been forever since I have been through a four week count but it comes out to .0769 which I'll call 8%. So, it goes from the usual 96% to 94% to 92% respectively. So, BEST case scenario was basing 100% of our pay on what happens 8% of the time which, of course, is just unconscionable and ludicrous. How do I know this ? Real simple, I am just a rural carrier with logic and deductive reasoning skills and I've been aware of this for decades and these engineers are certainly way more intelligent than I when it comes to these matters. So, if I knew it, then they knew it.
 

Sandygirl

Well-known member
Also take your scanner even if the item doesn't have a scan............like a Don't Bend flat that would get ruin if put in a small box......or like today I had a shoe box size parcel from Japan with no scan..........had to go to porch and you bet I carried the scanner to the customers porch.

The RCA that is assigned to the route I am assigned to...........said....I don't believe the scanner can tell when I back up and isn't accurate enough to tell if I drive down every road...........I guess we will see; but I wouldn't bet on it.
Well if it affects the RCA's pay it affects yours as well...…..correct?
 

Havenowgone

Well-known member
I know you guys are speaking of the here and now.... the thing I wanted to point out is that the data has been there.... they know what we do, how long it takes, etc.... how old is the post office? 1792? Ok.... so after 227 years we need more accuracy?

It takes a team of engineers to develop a system (RRECS) that isn’t even operational after four years, yet all the years of mail counts, the thousands of employees (demonstrating ability), timesheet data, gps data, data from city side deliveries... all this isn’t enough?

It doesn’t take an engineer to do simple arithmetic.... that’s all an honest count is.

Honesty is what it comes down to... it’s simply unimaginable to think that there aren’t any PO beancounters who know exactly what we are doing... they did have like 200+ years to figure it out.

Management can’t do honest... if they did... it’d be their jobs on the line to save money... not ours.... we do the work here...
No matter how honest a count is, our old counting system is obsolete! If it wasn't you wouldn't have some carriers working tons of free OT for hours over their evals each week and some just the opposite. The system needed revamping! The engineers created new standards that more accurately define our work functions, and amounts of mail that we deliver, so there won't be the winners and losers that our old system guaranteed. It's not about honesty, it's about accuracy. Accurate time allowances and accurate amounts of mail we deliver and accurate things we do in a day... (no built ins). Apparently the USPS didn't figure it out or didn't want to figure it out because they were benefiting from it. RRECS should generate more accurate evaluations, but the carriers have to do things like we are supposed to be doing them which includes taking the scanner with them and scanning at the point of delivery. If we do that, we should be able to get accurate times for parcel deliveries, which are one of the most inaccurate allowances in our old system. I'm not happy this thing is taking so long and am really disappointed that the assoc. hasn't moved to protect carriers while mandated date after mandated date is exceeded but in the end this should benefit rural carriers as a whole....as long as we don't cut our own throats and do things like we want and not as we must.
 
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Jmdw52

Active member
No matter how honest a count is, our old counting system is obsolete!
The old counting system is not honest! The intention of a count is to get a solid example of what the carrier does during the year. What really happens? Well.... most of us seem to feel our mail magically drops during counts... amazon suddenly starts dropping packages on our routes a few weeks after count is over... the definition of a flat vs parcel gets fudged when they can get away with it...

If we had an honest count.... to the intent of what the count should be... the old system would be fine.... it is obsolete because it can be manipulated, bent, and distorted... I am a fan of eval... but, any complex count method will eventually have holes that can be exploited.... RRECS included.... sad to admit but to deal with dishonesties.. simplicity wins.... meaning, hourly might be the only way to put things is our favor.
 

Oi veh.

Moderator
Staff member
Well if it affects the RCA's pay it affects yours as well...…..correct?
I am worried about that, but have been told by people in the study that it's not quite hourly, but those who are bending/not observing proper delivery rules (i.e., read the PO-603, M-38, P-610) are really going to feel it in their wallets...then they'll slow down.

We'll see. I'm doing everything by the book and have been forever. "Demonstrated ability." Everyone makes fun of me for being "slow", but this ole tortoise is going to win the race.
 

gerl2

Well-known member
I am worried about that, but have been told by people in the study that it's not quite hourly, but those who are bending/not observing proper delivery rules (i.e., read the PO-603, M-38, P-610) are really going to feel it in their wallets...then they'll slow down.

We'll see. I'm doing everything by the book and have been forever. "Demonstrated ability." Everyone makes fun of me for being "slow", but this ole tortoise is going to win the race.
Exactly, I also used to load my POV with packages that drop first to the front and opened my side door to grab, then I realized why am I doing this backward after all if packages were at the back makes more sense, yes I know it will be an extra 10 steps. When I used the LLV I would load the same way, why bang your knee on the pesty trey trying to grab that package, place your packages that drop in the back. PS don't forget your scanner ;)
 

Havenowgone

Well-known member
The old counting system is not honest! The intention of a count is to get a solid example of what the carrier does during the year. What really happens? Well.... most of us seem to feel our mail magically drops during counts... amazon suddenly starts dropping packages on our routes a few weeks after count is over... the definition of a flat vs parcel gets fudged when they can get away with it...

If we had an honest count.... to the intent of what the count should be... the old system would be fine.... it is obsolete because it can be manipulated, bent, and distorted... I am a fan of eval... but, any complex count method will eventually have holes that can be exploited.... RRECS included.... sad to admit but to deal with dishonesties.. simplicity wins.... meaning, hourly might be the only way to put things is our favor.
I would have been happy to switch to hourly pay but RRECS is what we will have for the foreseeable future. I believe the USPS will look for any loopholes in RRECS that they can think of so as to save money. That is their main concern. I went through many counts in my career and witnessed all kinds of dishonesty but even when I got a decent count where I was happy with the numbers, things still didn't work out well. The time allowances (especially for parcels) are way out of whack. The old system is obsolete and NOT fine even when the count seems to go well. Add in the inequity of DPS and FSS and it gets worse. I also am a fan of evaluated pay because I liked the freedoms that we have with evaluated pay, but I was not a fan of being evaluated by the old system (no matter how fair the count seemed to go).Things needed to change (and they will) and if the new system doesn't work, maybe then there can be a mass uprising to switch to hourly. Tweaking the old system may have worked but you know how the USPS is, the assoc can fight tooth and nail for changes and the USPS always wants something in return. The system needed to be revamped by outside professional time engineers so there would be no fighting over times and just facts and figures. Accurate times of all or most daily functions along with more accurate mail volume accounting should be a plus. I wish I could have worked under RRECS. That was my goal but I couldn't go on with my career any longer. I hope the changes will be welcomed by most rural carriers.
 

neciat

Well-known member
This is in no way whatsoever meant as any disrespect to Oi veh or anyone else that uses or has used the term "demonstrated ability." I hear this term way too much and see it on here even more. The issue I have with that term is this ; no one ever tells the rest of the story. Example, I have never wrecked a Rolls Royce. The rest of the story is this ; I have never driven one. Okay, demonstrated ability ? That's on an evaluated system. Now, Let me DEMONSTRATE my ability on an hourly system. Two totally different systems. I am advocating neither hourly nor evaluated. I am just reminding everyone that needs to be reminded that two different systems will have two different demonstrated abilities. Look at the city side for those of us that have city routes in our office. Four trays of mail is eight hours. There's an ability demonstrated for ya'. Now, give a rural carrier that same mail and see when he / she is done. No incentive on the city side to complete the job sooner for the same pay. All I am saying is that demonstrated ability will have two different meanings, values, etc. on two different systems.
 

PastOThirty

Well-known member
I see both kinds of city carriers at each end of the spectrum from those that don’t give a frog about anyone or anything and will be back in 8 hours, but always with leftovers for someone else to deal with, and then those that can hustle without running and be done in 8 most days, bringing nothing back, maybe taking a part.

Work ethic is not reflected of the pay system. However, if you throw “incentives” around, and getting them becomes normal or nearly so, many will find a way when there otherwise should not be a way. Game theory and incentive compatibility. We all want to go home, whether hourly or evaluated.
 
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Oi veh.

Moderator
Staff member
When it comes to the postal service, demonstrated ability is what you will be judged on.

The days of skating through your route and going home are. over.

If you have demonstrated that you can run a 9 hour route in 6, then guess what? That's what you will be expected to do. If you then decide, because you figure out that you are losing money by not following all delivery standards to the T, to do it by the book, you will be under the microscope.

Those of us who figured out a long time ago where this debacle was going to lead won't (or at least not as hard).

Just sayin'.
 
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