working off the clock

[Dominator]

I always get a kick out of the hypocrisy of coming in early is "off the clock" but if you go 3 hours over evaluation you are still "on the clock". Wake up.

Whoever is disputing what "off-the-clock" means with you is clearly confused. It has nothing to do with the time necessary to complete the route, nor coming in early.

Under-recording actual work hours where actual work hours exist constitutes working "off the clock".

It's reciprocal, over-recording work hours, (claiming you worked 9 when you actually worked 8) is just as fraudulent, but also may get a carrier slapped for trying to get overtime, or worse, actually getting paid for hours they never worked.

Anyhow, as far as under-recording work hours...

If you actually worked 7:00 to 4:00 but you report that you worked from 7:30 to 3:30, you have 1 hour worked that is not recorded "on-the-clock". That 1 hour (7:00-7:30 and 3:30 to 4:00) was worked "off-the-clock".

On paper, that one hour of workload that you completed from 7:00 to 7:30 and from 3:30 to 4:00 appears to have been completed somewhere during the 8 work hours (7:30-3:30) you claimed it took to complete the route.

On paper looks like it took 8 hours to complete what in reality was a 9 hour work load.

Management then takes the position that what (on paper) took 8 hours to complete (though what was actually 9 hours of work) is a reasonable standard of productivity.

Meanwhile, the carrier who works 8 and records 8 (on paper) looks like they're sandbagging because they aren't able to process what in reality is 9 hours worth of widgets, in 8 hours.

 

[DB.Cooper]

A state trooper gave me a ticket a few years ago when I rolled through a stop sign out in the boonies ! My record which of course he checked had been clean for 25 plus years !

I ended up with an equipment violation, cost about $250. I missed 2 days of work for court which was GREAT !

And, of course you notified the PO you got the ticket while on the route....

 

[hockey94]

And, of course you notified the PO you got the ticket while on the route....

Am I supposed to ?? BTW, what could the PO actually do to you for a ticket ??

What trooper/cop gives a ticket to the mailman, ahole !!

 

[hunchback]

If mgmt is “forcing“ carriers to work off the clock, that is a grievance. BUT if Carriers do it on their own, there is no grievance. You cannot file against another carrier, only against mgmt.

NOT ALWAYS

Maybe we should discuss recent events.

Remember when the USPS used scanner data to reduce the mileage of rural routes.

THE ONLY WAY TO CONTEST THIS WAS.......

YOU GUESSED IT.... DO A RIDE ALONG IN A CERTIFIED VEHICLE.....

DRUM ROLL PLEASE.... OFF THE CLOCK

Yes the union NEGOTIATED a circumstance where you are required to work OFF THE CLOCK
so the USPS can't steal from you.

I have often wondered if you were in an accident and injured while on your ride along, would the Department Of Labor actually consider you OFF THE CLOCK and therefore ineligible for workman's compensation, my suspicion is the Department Of Labor would view you as ON THE CLOCK.
But none of that time will be included in your 2080/2240

I bet you can think of other examples where we are VOLENTOLD to work off the clock with tacid approval of the union

 

[DB.Cooper]

Am I supposed to ?? BTW, what could the PO actually do to you for a ticket ??

What trooper/cop gives a ticket to the mailman, ahole !!

Oh, I'm guessing they'd have a cow and make a HUGE deal about it..... good thing they didn't have the sitting still reports back then, or you'd had to have said you were having lunch or some such.... ?

 

[DB.Cooper]

Am I supposed to ?? BTW, what could the PO actually do to you for a ticket ??

What trooper/cop gives a ticket to the mailman, ahole !!

A few years back, as I was rolling toward a stop sign, on a gravel road, all of a sudden a trooper car appears on the other road, so I hit the brakes a slid a little on the gravel.... he gave me the evil eye, but kept on going.... sheew.... ?

 

[hockey94]

Oh, I'm guessing they'd have a cow and make a HUGE deal about it..... good thing they didn't have the sitting still reports back then, or you'd had to have said you were having lunch or some such.... ?

The person in charge of our PO I am fairly certain is not capable of accessing the various programs tied into the new scanner !

 

[Skierstmoritz]

@Grant carter and @uspsrfd-1 - give this to your stew. It IS the union's responsibility, as well as ours (individual carriers). A class action would be in order, methinks. The question would be along the lines of "Why is management ignoring and allowing carriers to work off the clock?" My stew said it was a pretty simple win for her.

Ruralinfo.net Knowledgebase

Rural carriers, find what you need fast!

knowledgebase.ruralinfo.net

 

[Dominator]

...

Yes the union NEGOTIATED a circumstance where you are required to work OFF THE CLOCK
so the USPS can't steal from you.

I have often wondered if you were in an accident and injured while on your ride along, would the Department Of Labor actually consider you OFF THE CLOCK and therefore ineligible for workman's compensation, my suspicion is the Department Of Labor would view you as ON THE CLOCK.
But none of that time will be included in your 2080/2240

I bet you can think of other examples where we are VOLENTOLD to work off the clock with tacid approval of the union

There seems to be some mixed concepts here.

Route remeasurement is covered in Article 30.1.E.


Notice that carriers have the right to be present; not the obligation.

Since you'd be in a non-duty status, you wouldn't be performing obligations or "duties".

The article does not state what "presence" is accepted. I presume you could drive your own vehicle close behind the person doing the remeasurement.

If you actually ”rode along” in the vehicle with the remeasuring manager, that could be risky; more for the USPS than the non-duty employee.

I don't believe you would be covered under OWCP because you're in a "non-duty" status. It sounds like any accident where you "rode along" would be a personal injury suit against the USPS. There may be an angle though for aggravating an existing condition if you worked the next day. I'm not confidently certain in OWCP issues though to get into detail.

If there is a dispute on the measurement, management should take note of the dispute.
Since a "dispute" is a grievance, the disputing carrier could get the union involved and file a grievance, if necessary.

 

[hunchback]

There seems to be some mixed concepts here.

Route remeasurement is covered in Article 30.1.E.
View attachment 3782

Notice that carriers have the right to be present; not the obligation.

Carrier has the right to be present if they want to insure the usps doesn't cheat them, of course the usps has NEVER cheated an employee out of compensation, EVER, right.

From a car following the official vehicle could you see if they reset the odometer.

If you chose not to ride along, the official remeasure will be assumed correct, so no you don't have to be present, it's only your pay.

What other union agreed to this type of nonsense.

Could it be the reason that the usps adjusted peoples route mileage using the unreliable scanner data was because this process puts the burden of proof on the carrier to fight to get credit for a portion of the mileage they drive each day. Actual mileage driven, minus distance from roadway to mailbox, minus mileage to deliver packages down driveways and commercial lots, to houses in developments with CBU's, and down farm lanes
A process few actually know about (unless they come to Rural Mail Talk)

 

[Dominator]

Carrier has the right to be present if they want to insure the usps doesn't cheat them, of course the usps has NEVER cheated an employee out of compensation, EVER, right.

From a car following the official vehicle could you see if they reset the odometer.

If you chose not to ride along, the official remeasure will be assumed correct, so no you don't have to be present, it's only your pay.

What other union agreed to this type of nonsense.

Could it be the reason that the usps adjusted peoples route mileage using the unreliable scanner data was because this process puts the burden of proof on the carrier to fight to get credit for a portion of the mileage they drive each day. Actual mileage driven, minus distance from roadway to mailbox, minus mileage to deliver packages down driveways and commercial lots, to houses in developments with CBU's, and down farm lanes
A process few actually know about (unless they come to Rural Mail Talk)

If management is cheating a carrier through a route measurement, having the carrier in the vehicle with the manager doing the measurement, or having multiple vehicles follow with multiple tracking devices and channel 22 recording live via helicopter while chasing management's white bronco during the measurement doesn't change the fact that if a carrier disagrees with the result, they can grieve it.

Choosing not to ride along (through whatever method) does not create a presumption that the measurement is correct. A carrier's choice to not grieve is what creates the presumption that the measurement is correct. (A grievance is a dispute. If there is no grievance, it only follows that there is no dispute and it is presumed that the measurement is correct.)

It's nonsense if a person disagrees with the measurement and doesn't grieve while expecting their disagreement to resolve itself.

The only other postal union with route measurements is the NALC. However, they don't use the evaluated pay system the NRLCA uses.

As with any contractual grievance, the burden is on the violated to prove their case.

The method used to gauge time standards isn't fair for every individual carrier. It's allegedly fair when looked at over the entire nation.

The USPS can be a shrewd business. They aren't interested in giving anything away easily. Sometimes the employer cheats the employee. Sometimes the employee cheats the employer.

Resetting the "trip" odometer could easily happen. Don't go by that. Use the vehicle's standard odometer. If you still doubt the outcome, grieve it.

If you're displeased with our current leaders, use your resources to get those you want negotiating your contract in office. If you're a qualified union member, you could even run yourself.

Fighting "City Hall" is no easy win, but if you play your hand right, perhaps you'll be able to make the changes you've so fiercely advocated, nationwide.

 

[Wilco183]

@Dominator....”What other union agreed to this type of nonsense.”

Not the unions with craft that get paid 100 minutes a week to smash butt. Yet somehow, it's viewed by the USPS to be unatural for a rural carrier to have that same undertime in a time incentivized pay system.

 

[Dominator]

@Dominator....”What other union agreed to this type of nonsense.”

Not the unions with craft that get paid 100 minutes a week to smash butt. Yet somehow, it's viewed by the USPS to be unatural for a rural carrier to have that same undertime in a time incentivized pay system.

Pressing the NRLCA to merge with another willing union could perhaps yield the conditions it appears you seek. There may be a majority of delegates that share your same position and frustrations. Who knows? You could spark a change in the union's direction.

If so, I hope it's a positive change.

 

[DB.Cooper]

View attachment 3786
Pressing the NRLCA to merge with another willing union could perhaps yield the conditions it appears you seek. There may be a majority of delegates that share your same position and frustrations. Who knows? You could spark a change in the union's direction.

If so, I hope it's a positive change.

At a minimum, it would probably be an improvement to have the NRLCA become an affiliate of the AFL-CIO, as ALL other postal unions have already done.... ?‍?

 

[Dominator]

At a minimum, it would probably be an improvement to have the NRLCA become an affiliate of the AFL-CIO, as ALL other postal unions have already done.... ?‍?

That would be an interesting transition indeed. Though, I think brand loyalty wouldn't allow it, even if the grass were factually greener.

 

[DB.Cooper]

That would be an interesting transition indeed. Though, I think brand loyalty wouldn't allow it, even if the grass were factually greener.

My thinking is.... AFL-CIO could provide some expertise and assistance, particularly at contract negotiation time.... are all of the other postal unions out to lunch by affiliating with the AFL-CIO, and it's only the NRLCA that has their $#!+ together.... js... of that, I have my doubts... ?‍??

 

[Dominator]

My thinking is.... AFL-CIO could provide some expertise and assistance, particularly at contract negotiation time.... are all of the other postal unions out to lunch by affiliating with the AFL-CIO, and it's only the NRLCA that has their $#!+ together.... js... of that, I have my doubts... ?‍??

Our convention elections are generally based on rumor and sensationalism. We go into a caucus and hear about all the good the people running will do.

Somehow though, many delegates forget that one person doesn't carry the vote for the other 8. So, here we are with 15 or so minutes of speech time and 3-days worth of handshakes deciding who to place as leaders of our time.

There is no aptitude test.
There is no debate.
There is no review of the skill or ingenuity of their work.

Meanwhile, the experience that gets a member all of their "scout badges" is funneled to those being groomed to step up to beat the same tired old pattern on the same worn-out drum.

We could get a member running with total recall of all union/postal materials since the 71 agreement, that can cite any arbitration from all crafts, and has "Elkouri and Elkouri" engraved on their wedding band.

That member would likely get marginalized by the other members because the political machine seems to favor the member who gives the most warm-fuzzies.

I could be wrong, but if someone proposed merging with the AFL-CIO, I forecast the response would be as though someone punted the Easter Bunny into an alligator swamp in front of a Kindergarten class.

 

[DB.Cooper]

Our convention elections are generally based on rumor and sensationalism. We go into a caucus and hear about all the good the people running will do.

Somehow though, many delegates forget that one person doesn't carry the vote for the other 8. So, here we are with 15 or so minutes of speech time and 3-days worth of handshakes deciding who to place as leaders of our time.

There is no aptitude test.
There is no debate.
There is no review of the skill or ingenuity of their work.

Meanwhile, the experience that gets a member all of their "scout badges" is funneled to those being groomed to step up to beat the same tired old pattern on the same worn-out drum.

We could get a member running with total recall of all union/postal materials since the 71 agreement, that can cite any arbitration from all crafts, and has "Elkouri and Elkouri" engraved on their wedding band.

That member would likely get marginalized by the other members because the political machine seems to favor the member who gives the most warm-fuzzies.

I could be wrong, but if someone proposed merging with the AFL-CIO, I forecast the response would be as though someone punted the Easter Bunny into an alligator swamp in front of a Kindergarten class.

So, I guess the NRLCA really is the only postal union that has their stuff together.... probably why we do so much better than the NALC, APWU, etc... ??

But, thanks for adding detail to how and why the NRLCA is such a dysfunctional organization....

 

[Dominator]

So, I guess the NRLCA really is the only postal union that has their stuff together.... probably why we do so much better than the NALC, APWU, etc... ??

But, thanks for adding detail to how and why the NRLCA is such a dysfunctional organization....

What's frustrating (at least to me) is that it doesn't have to be. After witnessing over a decade of "let's reconsider this solution back at the state level and bring it back next year", the system looks like a perpetual motion machine on its way to nowhere.

This thread, for instance, is an issue that has plagued NRLCA negotiations for decades. How about negotiating a solution that stops this "tainted bump" thing from happening, nationwide.

Oh no. We're going to keep this cancer around and run with "just ask the carriers and management to stop" as a real-world solution.

It sounds great, but when reality strikes, there are few people that understand, and even less that care to try.

 

[DB.Cooper]

What's frustrating (at least to me) is that it doesn't have to be. After witnessing over a decade of "let's reconsider this solution back at the state level and bring it back next year", the system looks like a perpetual motion machine on its way to nowhere.

This thread, for instance, is an issue that has plagued NRLCA negotiations for decades. How about negotiating a solution that stops this "tainted bump" thing from happening, nationwide.

Oh no. We're going to keep this cancer around and run with "just ask the carriers and management to stop" as a real-world solution.

It sounds great, but when reality strikes, there are few people that understand, and even less that care to try.

The USPS AND (supposedly) the NRLCA undertook a joint venture, sometimes referred to as the "time study" or later as RRECS (aka wrecked pay system)... and spent several years and untold MILLIONS OF DOLLARS $$$$.... to resolve all the ills of our (supposedly) outdated pay system.... but yet, the NRLCA didn't insist that the age-old problem of "the bump" be solved during this process??? How could that be, after crying about it for DECADES now??? ?‍

"....the system looks like a perpetual motion machine on its way to nowhere...."

It's what I refer to as the NRLCA little hamster exercise wheel.... step up, pay your dues, and take your turn on the wheel.... aka, go to the meetings, makes the resolutions, yada, yada, yada.... as you said, on the road to nowhere.... ?‍